The Gorilla in the Room

[wil]

We can't not discuss it. It has been going on too long, it is too big not to address.

The conclusions of an 18 month grand jury, whew.

This is NOT Catholic bashing, it is a grim reality for tens of thousands of children around the world.

Sexual abuse by one you trust.

I do feel however it is exacerbated by a couple of things.

First is celibacy...it doesn't seem to work...humans are sexual beings...it doesn't work for hormonal teens, and it doesn't work for grown men. (I hate to think about what this says about my gender...but it is a reality)

Second I hate to say is a problem with forgiveness, and the sanctity of the confessional....the main reason this has continued for centuries is cover up...priests confessing to priests if they are caught and then getting shuffled around and protected rather than turned into the authorities. Due to this, what could possibly have been nipped in the bud at anytime in the past has just continued under the authority and knowledge of the hierarchy.

lastly....I don't believe it is by any way shape or means only the Catholic Church that is totally here...we've got pedophiles all over the world... We've just busted a few hundred of them thou, committing thousands of abuses, and we cannot ignore the Gorilla in the room.

I don't believe it is just a religious problem, although the pedestal we put our religious leaders on lends to a level of respect and control which appears to be ripe for abuse....power corrupts...we have a saying for that.

I don't believe this is a Pennsylvania problem, or a US problem....well it is....both....but the issue does not end at borders.

Forget about your partisan leanings....these are children, children who are likely scarred for life, will be in therapy, will manifest other maladies, and as is often shown, increased likelihood of going on to be pedophiles themselves.

What can be done?... these are children...they don't deserve this.

 

[Thomas]

OK. I'm not defending what's gone on, but ...

First is celibacy...it doesn't seem to work...

Sexual abuse is as frequent outside of celibate situations, so the celibacy argument is a false one in this context. That's a proven statistical fact.

humans are sexual beings...it doesn't work for hormonal teens, and it doesn't work for grown men. (I hate to think about what this says about my gender...but it is a reality)

Well I would be the first to complain that the catholic Church seems to have an historical fetish about what others get up to in the bedroom.

But then contemporary culture is equally as infatuated with sex, and until we work the 60s out of our system, that will go on. Our generation (we in our 60s and over) were really into sex, and so much so that not doing sex often is seen almost as an illness ... really, it's bull••••. We're way too focussed on sex.

Stats in the UK seem to show the younger generation are less into sex and more into relationships that we were, so maybe there's hope ...

Second I hate to say is a problem with forgiveness, and the sanctity of the confessional...

I wouldn't if I were you, cos it's not.

the main reason this has continued for centuries is cover up...priests confessing to priests if they are caught and then getting shuffled around and protected rather than turned into the authorities.

Yep, its in the nature of bureaucracies to cover up their errors and their ills.

Lastly ... I don't believe it is by any way shape or means only the Catholic Church that is totally here...

Evidence suggests the incidence of abuse is roughly in line with the cultural baseline for abuse across all institutions.

Different institutions get pointed at, at different times. When I was a kid, the boy scouts was a hotbed of pedophilia ... recently the movie industry ... we haven't touched the music industry yet, and that's gonna lift the lid on a can of worms ...

So who is your gorilla?

I rather think a lot of the blame can be placed before the 'me generation', the 'sexual revolution' of the 60s, the 'tune in, turn on, drop out' total abrogation of personal responsibility, the triumph of 'my truth' over truth-as-such which means nothing is every my fault ... it's a cultural thing.

But apart from that, it's the nature of the beast ...

Look at Love Island, for God's sake. Viewing figures in the UK were astronomical ... what does that tell you about the salacious nature of the beast?

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

In my eyes celibacy doesn't lead in any way to sexual deviation.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

We can't not discuss it. It has been going on too long, it is too big not to address.

I agree. The problem just goes on and on and on.

What can be done?

First, throw all these guys in jail. If the Pope knew about even one case and did nothing, he should go to jail too.

Second, have all Roman Catholics, from the Pope on down, admit there is something inherently wrong with Roman Catholicism.

Third, start discussions on how the Forgiveness of Sin just does not happen -- just like the Bible says. These predator priests are in for big trouble after they die, and no amount of praying or hiding behind Jesus will change this -- which is exactly how it should be. They think they will not be held accountable. Boy, are they in for a big surprise.

~~~~~~~

"Girl, 7, raped by priest in hospital among thousands of abuse cases by US priests"

https://metro.co.uk/2018/08/15/girl...ong-thousands-abuse-cases-us-priests-7840654/

 

[Thomas]

I agree. The problem just goes on and on and on.

I think Wil, quite fairly, made it quite clear this is not an anti-Catholic diatribe.

Please keep your anti-Catholic opinions to yourself.

Second, have all Roman Catholics, from the Pope on down, admit there is something inherently wrong with Roman Catholicism.

There is nothing inherently wrong with Roman Catholicism, this is just the voice of ignorance and prejudice.

Third, start discussions on how the Forgiveness of Sin just does not happen.

 

[RJM]

I'm wondering whether the perceived shelter of an institutional lifestyle may attract a certain percentage of people with 'tendencies'?

 

[wil]

Again....this is a huge trial which netted a lot of pedophiles in one state in one religion....any implication that this problem is isolated to this one religion or one state are seriously flawed, in my opinion... Is this a problem in Catholicism? YES, should it be addressed and no holes barred to stop it? YES!

I'm wondering whether the perceived shelter of an institutional lifestyle may attract a certain percentage of people with 'tendencies'?

Absolutely... the article below indicates that pedophiles (a sexual preference that starts at a young age) gravitate toward positions that provide them with trust, authority and access to young children. There for Clergy is high on the list, as are policeman, politicians, scout leaders, coaches, teachers etc. The clergy ranks higher because of the protection of the church which is aiding and abetting criminal activity. (no otter way to say it....handling the situation within, moving criminals around, not reporting to police).

Studies about pedophiles (adults who prey sexually on children) have not investigated the extent of this crime within the ministry, or whether the ratio of pedophiles in the ministry is higher than that of comparable high-risk professions. Experts agree that the molesting minister is a subset of the dangerous class of "respected members of the community" who betray their position of authority and trust by sexually assaulting children. Many warn that molesters are often "good Christians."

The social myth persists that a child molester is most apt to be of a low-class breed lurking in dark hallways, interested in abduction of children he does not know. In fact, most sexual abusers of children are respectable, otherwise law-abiding people who cultivate friendly relationships with their chosen prey, and may escape detection for precisely those reasons. Research agrees that the typical child molester is able to harm large numbers of children without being caught, in part, because he has already established a trusting relationship, playing on children's sense of loyalty, vulnerability, shame, and naivete, and fortifying his power to silence them through bribery, coercion and violent threats. In the case of a molesting man of the cloth, add to these threats the supernatural ones of God's wrath or hellfire.

The largest study of pedophiles was directed by researcher, physician and psychiatrist Gene G. Abel, M.D., of Emory University School of Medicine, for the Antisocial and Violent Behavior Branch of the National Institute of Mental Health. The landmark eight-year study revealed that, "Molesters often become youth ministers, day-care workers, Boy Scout leaders, teachers, Big Brothers and pediatricians" (Dr. Abel and Nora Harlow, "The Child Abuser," Redbook Magazine, August 1987). They add, "He is often an active Christian who is involved in his church."

Abel's study discovered that 403 pedophiles had molested more than 67,000 children! Pedophiles who targeted male victims averaged 282 victims, while pedophiles who targeted girls averaged 23 victims. Other studies have uncovered more traditional findings of higher incidences of abuse of girls.

Some figures are available about ministers who are child abusers. The Church Mutual Insurance Company, of Merrill, Wisconsin, which insures 46,000 churches, has seen about 200 claims against ministers for sexual abuse of children in the late eighties. The company estimated that in 1990 there were as many as 2,000 cases of sexual abuse by clergy in the courts.

Jeffrey Anderson, a Minnesota attorney who specializes in sexual abuse civil suits, was aware of more than 300 civil claims against Catholic priests in 43 states through 1991, and has handled 80 cases himself. Catholic reporter Jason Berry has tracked at least 100 civil settlements by the Catholic Church in the years 1984-1990, totaling $100 million to $300 million. Of course, many such civil cases are settled secretly.

Roman Catholic canon attorney Father Thomas Doyle has estimated that about 3,000 Roman Catholic priests are pedophiliac abusers of children (an average of 16 priestly sex abusers per diocese).

Baltimore psychotherapist and former priest A.W. Richard Sipe, author of A Secret World: Sexuality and the Search for Celibacy, 1990, made a comprehensive study of the sexual conduct of priests. As a result of his study, Harper's Index 1990 published this statistic: "Estimated chances that a Catholic priest in the United States is sexually active: 1 in 2." Sipe studied 1,000 priests and 500 of their "lovers" or victims. He offered this breakdown: 20% of priests are involved in sexual relationships with women; 8-10% in "heterosexual exploration," 20% are homosexual with half of them active, 6% are pedophiles, almost 4% of them targeting boys. However, Sipes observed "the homosexual contacts are four times more likely to come to the attention of parents or authorities, especially if the sexual involvement stops short of intercourse in heterosexual cases."

The offices of the national monthly Freethought Today out of Madison, Wisconsin, receive three to four newspaper clippings per week from readers detailing a new criminal or civil court accusation against a priest or Protestant minister. It has surveyed reported cases in North America during the years of 1988 and 1989 and found 250 reported cases of criminal charges involving child-molesting priests, ministers or ministerial staff in the United States and Canada. Of the accused clergy, 75 were Catholic priests (39.5%), and 111 were Protestant ministers (58%). Also charged were one Mormon clergyman, one occult minister and two cult ministers. Protestant cases involved equal numbers of mainstream and fundamentalist/evangelical denominations. That study revealed no rabbis charged with child molestation.

https://ffrf.org/faq/feeds/item/18500-the-scandal-of-pedophilia-in-the-church

 

[RJM]

It's so sad

 

[RJM]

There is the problem that what is told in the confessional doesn't go anywhere. A doctor who euthanasises a terminal cancer sufferer, for instance, and confesses to a priest.

But if the knowledge moves outside the confessional, the Church surely needs to report it as a crime, and not treat it as just a sin -- say sorry and try to do better. It has to stop to save the Church. Imo.

This cannot be allowed any longer. The Church, like any organisation, has to submit law breakers to the law of the land.

It is a very lousy and sad situation.

 

[wil]

This cannot be allowed any longer. The Church, like any organisation, has to submit law breakers to the law of the land.

Agreed, but even there there lies a problem. When the US passed the law in 1990 that doctors, psychiatrists, therapists, had to report child abuse and pedophelia....the people with the malady quit going to therapists, quit admitting their issue and crime...the law while it captured a few, sent even more underground and not receiving treatment... So confusing solutions are.

Reading thru a bunch of articles, including the Royal Commission in Australia, in comparing pedophiles....there are certainly some patterns, even tho our main problem in the situation is we are primarily discussing those that are accused and convicted...as we know pedophiles are skilled at covering their tracks and convincing their prey in many ways to keep quiet....for decades...often only coming out when their abuser has been made public by someone else and the personal guilt and vows of secrecy are virtually lifted.

But the overall consensus appears... celibacy is not a problem or indicator if a personal choice...but forced celibacy is. (requirement to join the church is not a choice, that is forced) Christians, church going Christians as a group have a higher percentage of pedophiles than the general public. Catholics have a higher percentage among all Christians.

Again...these are convictions, accusations.... and like all rape, most go unreported and we've only seen the tip of the iceberg. (as indicated by responses in anonymous polls and internet traffic)

This IS the gorilla in the room and ALL churches, Teachers Unions, Police Unions, etc. Should NOT be working to deny there is a problem, or play the we are not any worse than any other institution garbage, but should be working to clean up their ranks, report all accusations and offenders to the authorities...let them gain forgivness after they pay the penalties for their crime or prove themselves innocent.....in my opinion.

Scouting.... I was a scout as a kid, never encountered or heard of any issue as a kid. By the time my son joined cub scouts (5 years old) every year there was a film that the entire pack watched...about abuse, about it is not your fault, about do not let an abuser keep you quiet, about reporting, who to report to your parents, other scout leaders, the police and not stop reporting until someone responds with action...if anyone tells you it is ok, and not to worry...keep reporting until someone takes action. This 30 minute or so video, I watched every time, It addressed reporting your scout leaders, older scouts, teachers, parents, siblings, relatives, clergy...it addressed that most cases of pedophilia are from someone you know and trust...and they use that trust against you. The video was informative and had definite calls to action. The videos were updated modernized periodically and seemed to get a little more I don't know how to say it, 'adult' as the kids aged, more to the point...that could have been an age specific videos or simply upgrades (as I never returned to the cub program as my son was in scouts)... The boy scouts also instituted a buddy system....always have a buddy with you. And for adults, "no one on one" Scout leaders, merit badge counselors, always must have another adult with them when they were with one child that was not their own.

These types of things could be easily implemented into our schools, into religious education, required for every acolyte... it is no longer time to point fingers at others or deny accusations...it is time for proactive, and preventative action....and reporting this criminal activity which is physically, mentally and SPIRITUALLY, damaging souls.

 

[RJM]

Agreed, but even there there lies a problem. When the US passed the law in 1990 that doctors, psychiatrists, therapists, had to report child abuse and pedophelia....the people with the malady quit going to therapists, quit admitting their issue and crime...the law while it captured a few, sent even more underground and not receiving treatment... So confusing solutions are.

Reading thru a bunch of articles, including the Royal Commission in Australia, in comparing pedophiles....there are certainly some patterns, even tho our main problem in the situation is we are primarily discussing those that are accused and convicted...as we know pedophiles are skilled at covering their tracks and convincing their prey in many ways to keep quiet....for decades...often only coming out when their abuser has been made public by someone else and the personal guilt and vows of secrecy are virtually lifted.

But the overall consensus appears... celibacy is not a problem or indicator if a personal choice...but forced celibacy is. (requirement to join the church is not a choice, that is forced) Christians, church going Christians as a group have a higher percentage of pedophiles than the general public. Catholics have a higher percentage among all Christians.

Again...these are convictions, accusations.... and like all rape, most go unreported and we've only seen the tip of the iceberg. (as indicated by responses in anonymous polls and internet traffic)

This IS the gorilla in the room and ALL churches, Teachers Unions, Police Unions, etc. Should NOT be working to deny there is a problem, or play the we are not any worse than any other institution garbage, but should be working to clean up their ranks, report all accusations and offenders to the authorities...let them gain forgivness after they pay the penalties for their crime or prove themselves innocent.....in my opinion.

Scouting.... I was a scout as a kid, never encountered or heard of any issue as a kid. By the time my son joined cub scouts (5 years old) every year there was a film that the entire pack watched...about abuse, about it is not your fault, about do not let an abuser keep you quiet, about reporting, who to report to your parents, other scout leaders, the police and not stop reporting until someone responds with action...if anyone tells you it is ok, and not to worry...keep reporting until someone takes action. This 30 minute or so video, I watched every time, It addressed reporting your scout leaders, older scouts, teachers, parents, siblings, relatives, clergy...it addressed that most cases of pedophilia are from someone you know and trust...and they use that trust against you. The video was informative and had definite calls to action. The videos were updated modernized periodically and seemed to get a little more I don't know how to say it, 'adult' as the kids aged, more to the point...that could have been an age specific videos or simply upgrades (as I never returned to the cub program as my son was in scouts)... The boy scouts also instituted a buddy system....always have a buddy with you. And for adults, "no one on one" Scout leaders, merit badge counselors, always must have another adult with them when they were with one child that was not their own.

These types of things could be easily implemented into our schools, into religious education, required for every acolyte... it is no longer time to point fingers at others or deny accusations...it is time for proactive, and preventative action....and reporting this criminal activity which is physically, mentally and SPIRITUALLY, damaging souls.

... celibacy is not a problem or indicator if a personal choice...but forced celibacy is. (requirement to join the church is not a choice, that is forced) Christians, church going Christians as a group have a higher percentage of pedophiles than the general public. Catholics have a higher percentage among all Christians...

Once the vow of celibacy is made, it does in practicality become enforced. Either break your vow and live with the guilt, or leave the priesthood.

Leaving the priesthood is not easy. Finding a home, a job. Starting with nothing ...

 

[wil]

Breaking vows, breaking laws, pedophilia is what we are speaking of... and the church is not enforcing leaving the priesthood....why not?

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

But the overall consensus appears... celibacy is not a problem or indicator if a personal choice...but forced celibacy is. (requirement to join the church is not a choice, that is forced) Christians, church going Christians as a group have a higher percentage of pedophiles than the general public. Catholics have a higher percentage among all Christians.

Sources please.

 

[wil]

I googled and read a dozen different articles....all with way to much info to post...

Reading thru a bunch of articles, including the Royal Commission in Australia, in comparing pedophiles...

The only ones that deny such connections are from religious sources....the only ones i found that is.

 

[Thomas]

I'm wondering whether the perceived shelter of an institutional lifestyle may attract a certain percentage of people with 'tendencies'?

It would seem so. Seminaries in America suffered particularly, I think ...

There's recent news that charities and NGOs are also a favoured route ... the exploitation in Haiti by workers for Oxfam has led to disclosures of similar abuses and now all organisations are under review.

 

[Thomas]

There is the problem that what is told in the confessional doesn't go anywhere...

Does this apply to doctors, lawyers, etc>

... the Church surely needs to report it as a crime, and not treat it as just a sin -- say sorry and try to do better.

That's not how the church treats it.

This cannot be allowed any longer. The Church, like any organisation, has to submit law breakers to the law of the land.

Again ... not all organisations are so obliged.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

I googled and read a dozen different articles....all with way to much info to post...

I'll remember this one for my next paper, thanks!

 

[RJM]

Does this apply to doctors, lawyers, etc>


That's not how the church treats it.


Again ... not all organisations are so obliged.

There is a particular problem with the Church having to deal with sin, rather than crime. I'm saying if it happens in a school, or business, for instance, it is less likely to escape criminal prosecution than in the Church.

A paedophile priest who bounces a boy on his lap -- but who would not dream of robbery or grevious bodily harm, say -- has to understand that he's committing a SERIOUS CRIME. Its not some little pecadillo. Perhaps that perception is not fully realised.

I don't know. It's sad and bad ...

 

[Thomas]

But the overall consensus appears... celibacy is not a problem or indicator if a personal choice...but forced celibacy is.

Evidence, please.

Christians, church going Christians as a group have a higher percentage of pedophiles than the general public. Catholics have a higher percentage among all Christians.

Again, evidence.

If you Google, you'll find loads of opinion pieces with statistics to support your claims. You can also find loads to refute them.

As we have seen so often, once it begins, more and more cases appear ... so at present the church is in the spotlight — not defending, just pointing out. Take the film industry. One person lays a claim against Harvey Weinstein, then suddenly more appear, then even more naming other accusers. I'm not saying the claims should not be listened to, I'm saying we should be careful about extrapolating data and making broad accusations.

A tutor on my course was beaten up in the street in my last year. He is a priest, therefore he is a pedophile.

This discussion is skating the edge of 'fake news', and it's ton is ill suited to IO. Moral outrage is understandable, but it also has its place.

 

[RJM]

As a Catholic I wish to stay out of this discussion from this point