The Gorilla in the Room

Again....this is a huge trial which netted a lot of pedophiles in one state in one religion....any implication that this problem is isolated to this one religion or one state are seriously flawed, in my opinion... Is this a problem in Catholicism? YES!
And, by the same reasoning, Is this a problem with Americans? Yes! Pedophilia in the American priesthood is ten times greater than in the UK, for example. See — broad-brush accusations don't really help.

In the UK we are now entering another high profile case which reveals that a group of men have been grooming and sexually abusing young girls for many years. The crimes are over 20 years old, and despite the fact that the crimes were reported, the fact that the girls came from poor, working class and often dysfunctional families meant their voice was ignored by the authorities. In the eyes of most front-line police, they were tarts, slappers, slags in the making. In one case, a senior (female) social worker and a senior (female) police detective resigned because they were gagged by contracts not to speak out at what was obviously institutional abuse in that victims were ignored.

The problem is further exacerbated in that the victims are all white, early-teenage girls, and the perpetrators are all Pakistani men in their twenties and older. They argued that if the parents had any respect for their daughters — as they did their wives and sisters — they would not be allowed to walk the streets as they do, dressed as they do. As ever, the perpetrator blames the victim.

But is it a problem with Pakistani's per se? (Answer: No.)
 
The clergy ranks higher because of the protection of the church which is aiding and abetting criminal activity. (no otter way to say it....handling the situation within, moving criminals around, not reporting to police).
This is where we need to tread carefully of leaping to false conclusions.

The clergy ranks highly because now the claims have been listened to, other victims are coming forward. This is evident in the Anglican communion in the UK (so not an issue with celibacy).

So the clergy ranks high because, possibly, in other areas the victims are not so readily forthcoming.

Complaints of rape, for example, are tied in with how the victim is treated by the authorities. That many women do not speak out is beyond dispute. We had a case of a taxi driver accused by one woman, and before the trial a dozen others came forward. The man did his time and is now up for parole, and now more of his victims are coming forward ...

Look at the movie industry. One day there's nothing but the odd rumour, then the complaint against Harvey Weinstein, then the floodgates open.

I'm not exonerating anyone, I'm asking for reason — and reason says we cannot make objective statements because we know in many areas the crimes go unreported.
 
Great posts Thomas, all around
Well, as Christians we are called to forgive.

Forgiveness is conditional on authentic contrition. Someone who confesses, but is not contrite and is has every intention of continuing whatever their practice 'with a clean slate' is not absolved — the process is made void by the inherent hypocrisy of the penitent. The evidence of Scripture is abundantly clear that Christ condemned the hypocrite in no uncertain terms.
So how do we combine this knowledge...
But there's no point railing about the sanctity of the confessional – it's non-negotiable. Like doctors, lawyers, etc., it's necessary. Nor would it solve the problem.
with this?

Solutions? thoughts which would work under existing Catholic structure or training?

Thoughts about "the boy scout' solution... a video about appropriate and inappropriate interaction and touching between children and older children and adults? In churches, in schools, in any situation where kids are present...so they see it 4/5 times a year every year of their lives...youth sports programs....can't sign up until you've seen the video...swimming pools...can't become a member till you've seen the video...religious education classes....religioius schools...can't sign up until you've seen the video..

If we can stop the grooming from working....can we stop the crime? If we can take away the guilt...can we get more reporting?
 
So how do we combine this knowledge ... with this?
Pope Francis has instructed that ANY report of abuse MUST be reported to the relevant authorities, and not 'discreetly dealt with' in-house.

As for Confession — I'd say in the case of clergy the penitent MUST declare his wrong-doing to his superiors who MUST inform the authorities. Without that, there can be no absolution.

Let there be light.

This will not prevent the sinner concealing his sin, but it will stop institutional cover-ups, in that all parties are liable when the offence comes to light.

In the UK we have the case of a senior Anglican archbishop who 'ignored' more-than-mere-rumours of abuses by a priest who ran a very, very successful outreach programme. The programme itself is successful in helping the young, but the person involved was clearly in a position to select and groom victims. In the bishop's (slim to non-existent) defence, he thought it inconceivable that such a popular figure with a successful record was a pedophile, and that the rumours were trouble-makers and professional jealousy... not good enough an excuse at all in my book, but it does highlight a very human failing of misdirected charity, betrayed trust, etc.

And look at Sir (now stripped) Jimmy Saville. One of the best-regarded Radio DJs, tireless charity worker who raised millions, a popular TV personality (especially on children's TV). Loved by everyone. A 'national treasure' as we call them, in the making ... A pedophile, a necrophile who actually used his fame and position to obtain keys to a hospital mortuary ... FOR WHAT POSSIBLE REASON WOULD HE NEED UNESCORTED FECKIN ACCESS TO A MORTUARY!!! ... (and he looked like a sleaze-ball: 'wife-beater' vest and sweatpants! I think he was daring the world to find him out)

... and there were rumours ... when his crimes came to light, everyone had heard the rumours, but no-one had proof.

Thoughts which would work under existing Catholic structure or training?
I've heard one journalistic report that vetting is so stringent now that the Church should be one of the safest institutions on the planet.

So severe that I heard (I'm not sure) that if you're gay you're off the programme, which is unfair in that gay men are not to de facto perpetrators — I think statistically heterosexual men are the abusers. This is not a question of sex, it's power.

Personally I think the Church should recruit from the laity. As it stands, all senior positions go the priests, that limits the resource pool of talent by a massive degree. Priests don't own the Church, WE are the church ... they've taken the allegory of 'the flock' too literally, we're not all dumb animals following our tails, and the way things stand, there's been too many wolves in shepherd's clothing.

Let there be light.

Thoughts about "the boy scout' solution... a video about appropriate and inappropriate interaction and touching between children and older children and adults?
With a big emphasis on social media.

If we can stop the grooming from working...
We can't. All we can do is make the groom-targets more aware ... but by far and away, most abuse happens in the family.

can we stop the crime?
Nope, it's in the genes. All we can hope is make it more difficult for the criminal, but Jeez, are they 'clever' at covering their tracks ... darkness is their friend, or their accomplice.

If we can take away the guilt... can we get more reporting?
Yes, but psychologically, I doubt it's that simple. The victim always feels, to some degree, complicit; Stockholm syndrome, sort of thing. What we need firstline is people to FECKIN LISTEN ... then one hurdle will be removed ... and then repeat ad nauseam: IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT. YOU'RE THE VICTIM HERE.

Please, in the name of God: Let there be light.

It's gonna be a long road, bro., there's stones still unturned ... but worth it, every step of the way.

Absentee fathers has a big part to play (along with abusive fathers) ... in pre-school and early-years child care, men are almost absent. Boys are missing a role model when they really, really need one. Of course the bad guys will gravitate to the position for all the wrong reasons, but the good guys don't, for another batch of wrong reasons — accusations of pedophilia being one, but limited career prospects also figures.

We need a culture that starts to really give a shit about those it ought to care about: The young, the elderly, the ill, the disabled ... and that requires education from the ground up about what kind of culture we aspire to. Stop treating care for one's neighbour as a laudable vocation (meaning you can pay nurses, etc., less). It should be a calling across the board. It should be an obligation.

The apocryphal comment attributed to Gandhi stands here: Q: "What do you think of western civilisation?" A: "I think it would be a good idea."
 
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It's gonna be a long road, bro., there's stones still unturned ... but worth it, every step of the way.

Absentee fathers has a big part to play (along with abusive fathers) ... in pre-school and early-years child care, men are almost absent. Boys are missing a role model when they really, really need one. Of course the bad guys will gravitate to the position for all the wrong reasons, but the good guys don't, for another batch of wrong reasons — accusations of pedophilia being one, but limited career prospects also figures.

We need a culture that starts to really give a shit about those it ought to care about: The young, the elderly, the ill, the disabled ... and that requires education from the ground up about what kind of culture we aspire to. Stop treating care for one's neighbour as a laudable vocation (meaning you can pay nurses, etc., less). It should be a calling across the board. It should be an obligation.

The apocryphal comment attributed to Gandhi stands here: Q: "What do you think of western civilisation?" A: "I think it would be a good idea."
Absolutely...
 
He's got his work cut out to get his orders followed ...

Oh yes. The CC is a cellular organisation: individual monasteries/schools and missions and parish communities. Perhaps they've known and lived with one another for perhaps 30yrs of more -- and then historical accusations surface.

Mostly they'll cover up. But it will give superiors ammunition: 'Look, I hate having to do this, but it's the boss' instruction and I could lose my job.'

In principle it's out there now: THIS ISN'T YOUR LITTLE BIT OF PETTING FUN: THIS IS A VERY SERIOUS CRIME! I do think this may not have been properly understood. In advance of the action, let's say?

It's rot that must be be dealt with. No more time left.

Let the Catholic Church lead.
 
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Priests don't own the Church, WE are the church ... they've taken the allegory of 'the flock' too literally, we're not all dumb animals following our tails, and the way things stand, there's been too many wolves in shepherd's clothing.

Totally. 1.2 billion Catholics are sick of it
 
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... And look at Sir (now stripped) Jimmy Saville. One of the best-regarded Radio DJs, tireless charity worker who raised millions, a popular TV personality (especially on children's TV). Loved by everyone. A 'national treasure' as we call them, in the making ... A pedophile, a necrophile who actually used his fame and position to obtain keys to a hospital mortuary ... FOR WHAT POSSIBLE REASON WOULD HE NEED UNESCORTED FECKIN ACCESS TO A MORTUARY!!! ... (and he looked like a sleaze-ball: 'wife-beater' vest and sweatpants! ...

A mortuary! You've got to be kidding!

Bro, did he have an ugly face ... chewing that big cigar ... wrote the textbook on ugly
 
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The disgusting details will be coming out of the Pennsylvania Grand Jury report for months...and thousands of people reliving the atrocities against them. This is why we need to get national on teaching ALL children if they are touched, or approached to keep talking to people till someone listens and takes action...this girl told her principle and her her mother, one told her she was a demon child and the other did not want to bring shame on the family...this has to stop.
When the new school year began, and she didn’t improve her math, she was sent to Sperber again. The victim told the principal that he touched her in weird ways. The principal became angry, scolded the child and said “How dare you make these terrible accusations? You are a demon-child.”

When the victim tried to talk to her mother, she replied, “We’re not going to talk about this. I don’t want anyone thinking that this was our fault.”
There are stories of pedo rings in the grand jury notes that have been known about since 1965 and the internal coverup continued till today...The Pope needs to come to Pennsylvania and be true to his word...he's got some tables to turn over...
 
It might be me, but I think this is a crisis point for the Church.

Most of the allegations in the Pennsylvania report are decades old, predating the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops’ (USCCB) 2002 Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People, more commonly known as the Dallas Charter. Now, church leaders must report instances of abuse to law enforcement, rather than handle the abuse among themselves. Matt Haverstick, an attorney representing two of the dioceses named in the report, has said that abuse cases have dropped precipitously since the 1970s and ’80s, and even more so since 2002. "Now law enforcement, and not internal church bureaucracies, investigates any allegations of abuse ... They pass these [cases] off to law enforcement and let law enforcement take the first crack at deciding what happened before the church will even touch it." David Gibson at Fordham University Center for Religion and Culture, and a longtime writer on Catholic issues, concurs. "The grand jury report actually shows how the system has worked," he said, referring to the Dallas charter and a wider cultural shift.

+++

My issue is that the curia and the conservatives are protective of the church as an institution. Many will see the opportunity to reform the Church, not simply to stop abuses, but to create an environment in which such things cannot happen — the fact that they did points to a flaw in the fabric of the existing structure.

Attempts were made to stop the release of the grand jury’s findings. Attempts were successful in the report being partially redacted.

In this, as every prior case, the church’s reluctance to publicise its own findings is a case in point (and JP-II, Benedict XVI and Francis are not excused from this).

The issue was that there was no desire by the church to do it. The reluctance was due to the age of the allegations: most of the offenders were retired or dead, and nearly all were beyond the statute of limitations. The public airing of the matter would do nothing but damage the reputation of the institution. Even now, the bureaucracy moves to conceal itself from censure. The 'good name' of the Church must be protected.

No thought about the surviving victims...

The crisis might be mine, but I will only be happy when the all-clerical structure is dismantled. When the laity have some meaningful oversight over bishops, over the management of their parishes, over appointments at Catholic institutions within the community. When, in short, the laity's voice is heard.

Pope Francis has blamed the root of the issue as clericalism, and I am inclined to agree. But in his "Letter to the People of God", there was no mention of bishops or the curia as being to blame. The solution is "collective Church-wide penance, fasting, and prayer as a response", which smacks of sharing the problem across the whole community, rather than looking to the management.

In everything said so far, there is no concrete steps for resolution of the crisis, nor recognition of the role bishops have played in the scandal.
 
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It might be me, but I think this is a crisis point for the Church.
Exactly why I started the thread. It could no longer be swept under the rug with this release...
My issue is that the curia and the conservatives are protective of the church as an institution.
This is what has been the problem all along, the fear of what the scandal will do vs addressing the crimes. Exactly what took Nixon down, his first denials were true...he had no knowledge of what his minions did, they kept it a secret from him. Once he discovered it and they said they could cover it up...he agreed, as he thought the damage to our country and the office of the President would be too great....the institution must be protected... We know where that went...and we know how the cover up has been going during our lifetime and the damage to the church.

What I am most impressed about the Pope's speech in Ireland....he spent zero time telling us the good the church does...he just pointed out how horrific it is, the churches failings for not addressing this sooner, and a promise to rectify, root out the criminals, and condemnation of those committing crimes
 
Imo CRIME is the word. I do believe that a little bit of fiddling with nice looking boys may have until recently been regarded more as a bit of a sin, less as a major criminal offence that can lead to years in prison.

Now please don't think I'm ignoring victims here.

But a clear foreknowledge of the CRIMINALITY of fondling boys -- before contemplating doing so -- may have a good effect to reduce it happening.

And it is the criminality of these sex offences -- RAPE -- that has been so widely publicised in this early part of the 21st century.

Catholics are damn furious about it.
 
a little bit of fiddling with nice looking boys
is never OK in any way shape or form for an Adult...always has been a crime... Sorry, you nearly made me lose my breakfast with that one.

It seems to me that the Catholic church tells young girls and boys that "a little bit of fiddling with nice looking boys" is unacceptable behaviour (me I deem that ok, from playing doctor in elementary school to safe sex as teens).....BUT for an ADULT and a leader, and a man of the cloth... "a little bit of fiddling with nice looking boys" is unacceptable, abhorrent and a crime!
 
I'm saying it's a perception by certain people -- scout masters, etc. It's a bit of a fondle and a cuddle -- its not really too bad.

Now it's out there how bad it is.

You don't have to like it. It's the reality. It's sad but it's true.
 
nothing wrong with a hug, or touch...something completely wrong with touch in inappropriate places.... I won't justify any of it... or believe that anyone doesn't know it is wrong....they may say it to cover it up...but they know it is wrong and know what they are doing...it is called grooming.
 
nothing wrong with a hug, or touch...something completely wrong with touch in inappropriate places.... I won't justify any of it... or believe that anyone doesn't know it is wrong....they may say it to cover it up...but they know it is wrong and know what they are doing...it is called grooming.
Grooming is actually a new word, and you can have no idea how upset Catholics are by these revelations about the perverted activities of their clergy. Are you asking me or telling me?
 
I don't want to talk about it. I agree with @Thomas it's time for lay-Catholics to bring these bastards down, if the 'Cloth' won't get on with it. Its heartbreaking. Goodnight
 
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