You made one of the most valid points about affecting the the problem within Catholicism...the sanctity of the confessional and laws, we need to remove absolution from criminals and report them, absolution can occur after the trial.
The Gorilla in the Room
- Thread starter wil
- Start date
when I have the time, I'll back up and post a dozen links....so you all may read the volumes and come to your own conclusions.
But again...we all know there is a problem.....don't we? really?hes
This is more than obvious right?
Is anyone denying there is a problem?
Or just trying to deny that it is a problem with my organization.
Or we aren't any more of a problem than anyone else?
So somehow that justifies ignoring the problem?
Again....so we are accepting that children should be with the gorilla?
We need to get beyond taking it personally....and solve it.
Demand it be solved.
And where are the potential solutions to the problem?
This is more than obvious right?
Is anyone denying there is a problem?
Or just trying to deny that it is a problem with my organization.
Or we aren't any more of a problem than anyone else?
So somehow that justifies ignoring the problem?
Again....so we are accepting that children should be with the gorilla?
We need to get beyond taking it personally....and solve it.
Demand it be solved.
And where are the potential solutions to the problem?
NO! I'm coming back here. That's not what I meant. The sanctity of the confessional can't change. Doctors and lawyers can't reveal. Journalists can't reveal.
But when it moves out of the confessional, becomes known outside the confessional, it needs to be reported, not covered-up. And the fact other organisations cover up too is not a justification. I hope this will shock the Catholic Church to start leading the way.
Don't start obliging priests to reveal confessional secrets. They have vowed to die before doing so.
Last edited:
Ah, I misinterpreted....
But again Most Pedophiles are male....I am not blaming all males
Most pedophiles are White Males...mostly because they are the majority but per capita they win as well
Most are Christian White Males...Christians are still the Majority in this country
and the Catholic religion is the largest denomination in the US, by far the largest unified group of people... if a solution to the issue can be found here it will have the largest repercussions world wide...and those solutions could be implemented by many to stop the abuse of children.
But again Most Pedophiles are male....I am not blaming all males
Most pedophiles are White Males...mostly because they are the majority but per capita they win as well
Most are Christian White Males...Christians are still the Majority in this country
and the Catholic religion is the largest denomination in the US, by far the largest unified group of people... if a solution to the issue can be found here it will have the largest repercussions world wide...and those solutions could be implemented by many to stop the abuse of children.
I am surprised it doesn't kill them to keep these secrets...philandering, theivery, I can understand....but to me (not a catholic) concealing rape, pedophiles, murderers, should be listed as aiding and abetting, collusion, accomplice after the fact, immoral and illegal.
Oh Wil. If the confessional was not sacrosanct, people simply wouldn't confess. You're American. Child rape is a huge problem in southern Africa because people believe sex with a virgin cures them of AIDS. Most Africans are black.
Believe me, paedophilia happens outside the white first-world. The urban third-world poverty and squalor is unbelievable. Incest and paedophilia are rife. Have a google.
But there is so much other crime there, that sex crime doesn't get the same attention that it does in the first world, which largely has a very low crime rate, relative.
A third of Christians are Catholic and the vast majority are not white male North Americans.
Do I need you start posting statistics of Catholic work with AIDS and leprosy in Africa?
Goodnight ...
(edited)
Believe me, paedophilia happens outside the white first-world. The urban third-world poverty and squalor is unbelievable. Incest and paedophilia are rife. Have a google.
But there is so much other crime there, that sex crime doesn't get the same attention that it does in the first world, which largely has a very low crime rate, relative.
A third of Christians are Catholic and the vast majority are not white male North Americans.
Do I need you start posting statistics of Catholic work with AIDS and leprosy in Africa?
Goodnight ...
(edited)
Last edited:
lol....yes please post charitable works so we can ignore the children and not address this issue....
yes I know there are horrific problems around the world....My stats were ALL US, I am from the US, I believe in working on and solving problems locally first and not pointing to others who are worse....Once we solve our issues locally, in our churches, in our police departments in our lands, once we feed our poor and give them health care...I'll be glad to take on the world!!
yes I know there are horrific problems around the world....My stats were ALL US, I am from the US, I believe in working on and solving problems locally first and not pointing to others who are worse....Once we solve our issues locally, in our churches, in our police departments in our lands, once we feed our poor and give them health care...I'll be glad to take on the world!!
"It is critical to note that this abuse is no less prevalent within the faith community. In fact, there are studies that demonstrate that the faith community is even more vulnerable to abuse than secular environments. The Abel and Harlow study revealed that 93% of sex offenders describe themselves as “religious” and that this category of offender may be the most dangerous. Other studies have found that sexual abusers within faith communities have more victims and younger victims.
If approximately 1 in 4 women and 1 in 6 men have been sexually abuse as children (an even a more conservative statistic than that provided by Dr. Russell), this means that our churches are filled with abuse survivors. For example, a church of 200 members (100 women and 100 men) will have at least 41 child sexual abuse survivors…20.5%! Yet, sexual abuse is still too seldom talked about inside our churches. How would your church respond if:
https://religionnews.com/2014/01/09/startling-statistics/
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/valerie-tarico/the-protestant-clergy-sex_b_740853.html
https://www.catholicity.com/commentary/hudson/00197.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_on_the_causes_of_clerical_child_abuse
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28526106
https://www.breitbart.com/texas/201...exas-teacher-student-sexual-misconduct-cases/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/21/AR2007102100144_pf.html
http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-act...nd-Deacons-in-the-United-States-1950-2002.pdf
https://ffrf.org/faq/feeds/item/18500-the-scandal-of-pedophilia-in-the-church
https://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter/229-apologetics-for-the-masses-issue-177
If approximately 1 in 4 women and 1 in 6 men have been sexually abuse as children (an even a more conservative statistic than that provided by Dr. Russell), this means that our churches are filled with abuse survivors. For example, a church of 200 members (100 women and 100 men) will have at least 41 child sexual abuse survivors…20.5%! Yet, sexual abuse is still too seldom talked about inside our churches. How would your church respond if:
- 20.5% of the congregation had cancer; or
- 20.5% of the congregation had lost a child; or
- 20.5% of the congregation had been fired from employment?
Well we now know why, we prefer to deny, point fingers, say well others are doing...but look at the good we are doing...THIS HAS GOT TO STOP...we each need to address this issue...these are children! Many of which will grow up to become abusers...we are creating our own future by not addressing this NOW.
https://religionnews.com/2014/01/09/startling-statistics/
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/valerie-tarico/the-protestant-clergy-sex_b_740853.html
https://www.catholicity.com/commentary/hudson/00197.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_on_the_causes_of_clerical_child_abuse
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28526106
https://www.breitbart.com/texas/201...exas-teacher-student-sexual-misconduct-cases/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/21/AR2007102100144_pf.html
http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-act...nd-Deacons-in-the-United-States-1950-2002.pdf
https://ffrf.org/faq/feeds/item/18500-the-scandal-of-pedophilia-in-the-church
https://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter/229-apologetics-for-the-masses-issue-177
The Catholic Clergy has been shown repeatedly to be covering it up very well themselves...I don't think they need your help
My comment was in direct relation to yours....
Why on earth would you ask if you need to start posting stats on Catholic works on AIDS and Leprosy in Africa??
The topic is the pedophilia, if you were to post the strides the Catholic Church is taking to eliminate them from their midst, on educating children and insisting that every child reports any abuse to their parents and the local law....that family members, church members, teachers and clergy have no right to touch them in inappropriate places, and they are breaking the law by exposing themselves or making them touch an older person.... THAT would be on topic.
my response I'll admit was a knee jerk reaction, after I have said repeatedly I don't care what other people are doing or diverting the topic... THESE ARE CHILDREN....children that we (as humans) have in our trust, and it is abohorrent to contiinue to ALLOW people in power to abuse them.
my intention was not to chase you off.
I consider your posts often to be valuable, insightful and more than worthy... even if we disagree.
I was simply pointing out that doing good with one hand, while not fully addressing the evil with the other is a mistake in my opinion.
Yes there are a lot of evils in this world....this thread is concentrated on one of them.
Your response (to me) is not acceptable (or in line with how you typically respond, imo) for you, or for any church.
(side note, the Catholic Church taking on the moniker of "The Church" almost like a trademark is a problem, when I refer to the church it is the body as a whole, all churches, all church type thought, or each individual church...if I am referring to the Catholic Church I will hence forward strive to use that name, or caps to define)
Your response (to me) is not acceptable (or in line with how you typically respond, imo) for you, or for any church.
I'm never over respectful of religious professionals. There are some good and holy people there, but some are institutionalised individuals who've made their choice of career and are stuck with it, like anyone.
A proportion obviously have 'tendencies' -- perhaps greater than society at large.
But it's no excuse to attack the edifice of the Catholic Church (CC) as evil and bad.
Now I understand this is not what you are trying to do -- that you are thoughtful and do more background research than most. But a huge section of people think of the CC as the most evil organisation that ever existed.
Yes, there have been bad priests. There are lazy and soft and sometimes downright perverted priests. It's always been like that. The CC has continued 2000yrs in spite of them, and will continue another 2000yrs in spite of them, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Because of the good ones, and mostly because of the congregation, which is the reality. IMO
EDIT: I can absolutely guarantee that of the 100 or so parishioners attending Mass on Sunday at Buckfast Abbey, that 20.5% -- or even probably 0.1% -- have most definitely not suffered sexual abuse by Catholic clergy at any time in their lives. It's a completely outrageous statistic, imo.
It's saying that of the 1.2 billion Catholics on earth, that 20.5% have been sexually abused by clergy?
Last edited:
https://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=130473&page=1
And if you inquired of your fellow parishioners...in a way they could remain anonymous as to how many of them have experienced sexual abuse in their lives, you would be as shocked as I when I was working with children regularly....
Some more facts...
We can add to those facts that by far MOST of them, the vast majority of them were not abused by Catholic Clergy or any Clergy, but by someone else they were familiar with and trusted.
And if you inquired of your fellow parishioners...in a way they could remain anonymous as to how many of them have experienced sexual abuse in their lives, you would be as shocked as I when I was working with children regularly....
- Messages
- 1,149
- Reaction score
- 287
- Points
- 83
I agree with @Thomas’ statements that this topic doesn’t meaning open season on the Catholic Church.
Before you post, please remember the original intent of this thread is NOT to bash the Catholic Church. Such statements go against IO’s Code of Conduct.
Before you post, please remember the original intent of this thread is NOT to bash the Catholic Church. Such statements go against IO’s Code of Conduct.
A Cup Of Tea
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 3,313
- Reaction score
- 580
- Points
- 108
its not my organisation.
I want this discussion to be based on things we know, not things "everyone knows". I have no idea what the data looks like in other organisations around children. Paedophiles look to be close to children, and all organisations are really bad at dealing with large-scale issues. What I do know is that the Church has been exposed and the confession has been used as the reasoning.
this is an important topic, but you aren't a delicate poster and tend to go at things with a hammer and a slight "burn the witch" mentality.
Yes, I have suggested the church quit aiding and abetting criminals. But I also stated a solution that seems to have great impact...educating the potential victims...just as we do about computer viruses...telephone scammers...identity theft....
A Cup Of Tea
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 3,313
- Reaction score
- 580
- Points
- 108
I know a doctor who confessed putting a terminal cancer patient out of his misery with a mercy injection -- who was refused absolution by the priest
Last edited:
Can we curb our moral indignation, cool down, and apply reason to the discussion?
Let's tackle a few points:
If it were purely a crime within the Catholic Church, then we'd have to look at the fabric of the institution, but it's not. It's broader than that.
In the case of the Catholic Church, it's compounded by a bureaucracy that (like all bureaucracies, it's in the nature of the beast) covers up and conceals wrongdoing to preserve its reputation.
This is doubly wrong when the Church should stand for what's right, what's good, and what's proper. Doubly wrong squared when the victims of bureaucratic abuse are the weak, the young, the very ones whom Christ set out to convince that God cared for them as much as, and no less than, kings and princes.
That the institution should not only cover up wrongdoings, but then move the perpetrator to another place where, it seems, they continue in their practice, is indefensible.
And in the end the damage to reputation is far broader. Not greater, only in that abuse against a child is the worst.
Forgiveness is conditional on authentic contrition. Someone who confesses, but is not contrite and is has every intention of continuing whatever their practice 'with a clean slate' is not absolved — the process is made void by the inherent hypocrisy of the penitent. The evidence of Scripture is abundantly clear that Christ condemned the hypocrite in no uncertain terms.
Criminals brought before the law in one city, if contrite, are not forgiven and moved to another. That the Church regarded this as an acceptable process is indefensible.
But there's no point railing about the sanctity of the confessional – it's non-negotiable. Like doctors, lawyers, etc., it's necessary. Nor would it solve the problem.
Let's tackle a few points:
In which case the issue is, primarily, with men.
If it were purely a crime within the Catholic Church, then we'd have to look at the fabric of the institution, but it's not. It's broader than that.
So do I.
In the case of the Catholic Church, it's compounded by a bureaucracy that (like all bureaucracies, it's in the nature of the beast) covers up and conceals wrongdoing to preserve its reputation.
This is doubly wrong when the Church should stand for what's right, what's good, and what's proper. Doubly wrong squared when the victims of bureaucratic abuse are the weak, the young, the very ones whom Christ set out to convince that God cared for them as much as, and no less than, kings and princes.
That the institution should not only cover up wrongdoings, but then move the perpetrator to another place where, it seems, they continue in their practice, is indefensible.
And in the end the damage to reputation is far broader. Not greater, only in that abuse against a child is the worst.
I don't think so. There's no causal link, and the instance of abuse is the same where celibacy is not a requirement.
Well, as Christians we are called to forgive.
Forgiveness is conditional on authentic contrition. Someone who confesses, but is not contrite and is has every intention of continuing whatever their practice 'with a clean slate' is not absolved — the process is made void by the inherent hypocrisy of the penitent. The evidence of Scripture is abundantly clear that Christ condemned the hypocrite in no uncertain terms.
Then that's the bureaucratic problem I've outlined above. The naiveté of those who assume that once uncovered, the perpetrator will mend his ways is laudable, but misguided. A crime has been committed. The victim, by this process, is denied a voice and denied justice.
Criminals brought before the law in one city, if contrite, are not forgiven and moved to another. That the Church regarded this as an acceptable process is indefensible.
But there's no point railing about the sanctity of the confessional – it's non-negotiable. Like doctors, lawyers, etc., it's necessary. Nor would it solve the problem.