Aussie Thoughts
Just my 2 cents
Don't dismiss Christianity because of poor understanding or inept teaching. That's like saying math's not for you because you were taught 2+2=5. Don't dismiss the subject, dismiss your teacher.
I'm on a journey, hello. :)
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Arif Ghamiq
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I think your idea of studying the History the Bible & of the Christian Religion as a whole is a good one and should be applied to any Religion one wishes to learn about.
I can understand being turned off from something that seems to speak harmfully about femininity and female-ness. I’ve been turned off from things that, to me, seem to say harmful things about masculinity and male-ness - although some people deny such things even exist or claim they’re insignificant - I found it to be very real and it had a personal impact on me.
Further scrutiny sometimes revealed that my interpretation was incorrect - sometimes it confirmed it.
I believe having a desire to look deeply & honestly is essential - it appears you have such a desire.
I can understand being turned off from something that seems to speak harmfully about femininity and female-ness. I’ve been turned off from things that, to me, seem to say harmful things about masculinity and male-ness - although some people deny such things even exist or claim they’re insignificant - I found it to be very real and it had a personal impact on me.
Further scrutiny sometimes revealed that my interpretation was incorrect - sometimes it confirmed it.
I believe having a desire to look deeply & honestly is essential - it appears you have such a desire.
Women's lib and that old time religion...there are modern interps and churches that honor women....
1 Corinthians 11
And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head - it is just as though her head were shaved.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.
Ephesians 5:22-24
Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
1 Timothy 2:9
I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes
1 Timothy 2:11-12
A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
1 Timothy 2:15
But women will be saved through childbearing - if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety
1 Corinthians 11
And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head - it is just as though her head were shaved.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.
Ephesians 5:22-24
Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
1 Timothy 2:9
I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes
1 Timothy 2:11-12
A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
1 Timothy 2:15
But women will be saved through childbearing - if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety
Sometimes I say that I am a patriarch in recovery. Society's gender roles assigned to boys and men are harmful, though less blatantly obviously so than those imposed on girls and women. So I get the sense of what you are saying, even if not in its full everyday thrust.
I think the two are tightly related, in fact.
Good to have you here and looking forward to many good conversations!
I know. These 'Paulisms' are totally not apt for the 21st Century. They were written 2000 years ago, when times were different.
None of them are relevant to the Catholic Church as it is today.
It's back to the fundamentalist Bible literalists, and the damage they cause to Christ's true teachings, imo?
Is back when slavery was common, blacks were animals, men were Superior, wives are meant to be beaten...
I wonder which Millenia will quit trotting out that excuse?
So, because the world was once a primitive place, God doesn't exist?
This quote:
goes on:
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church -- for we are members of his body.
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We live in an age where war has not touched many of us. In the times that scripture was written war was a constant, with people continually trying to invade and steal, etc. When nations were not at war with other nations, the tribes within those nations were at war with one another. There were walls around cities, and all young men were trained to fight. Things were different then. History is written in blood.
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To address a few random points:
My family is still struggling with the after-shocks of the last war. Likewise my wife's family. My childhood home (not my ancestral home) was afflicted by the destructions of civil war for the past 40 years. So much for being untouched by war.
Historically, both men and women have fought in wars.
I was alluding to more subtly damaging aspects of the current social gender roles as expected of men. Chivalry turned into this thing where the knights became the dragons guarding the princesses. Motherhood became a glass casket. And so on.
I love not having to defend slavery, racism, misogyny, inequality....to not have to point to writings or people and claim, it was the time, or look at this passage, ignore that one.
I like just saying it was wrong and let us change that and do netter.
Worse yet is having to defend the old ways because the vestiges are still included today!
I hear you Stellaluna, loud and clear, and admire your continued search, despite realities.
I like just saying it was wrong and let us change that and do netter.
Worse yet is having to defend the old ways because the vestiges are still included today!
I hear you Stellaluna, loud and clear, and admire your continued search, despite realities.
Arif Ghamiq
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Could be that in “finding God” we may discover we don’t like Him/Her/It
I found that largely depends on a combination of who introduces you, how you are introduced and your perception.
A Cup Of Tea
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Welcome! I'm not really here much anymore, but sometimes I pop back in!
As a non-religious person...
...yeah I can relate. A lot of the text really triggers me, and I have to sort of let go of what the words mean to me and ask more knowledgeable people what is implied in the texts. I was still trying to relate to Christianity when I got to this site and @Thomas really helped me redefine what Christianity is in my mind. He writes in an academic way which was accessible to me. He is a very knowledgeable Catholic and is able to both defend and condemn the Church.
...I also like your shoes...
As a non-religious person...
...yeah I can relate. A lot of the text really triggers me, and I have to sort of let go of what the words mean to me and ask more knowledgeable people what is implied in the texts. I was still trying to relate to Christianity when I got to this site and @Thomas really helped me redefine what Christianity is in my mind. He writes in an academic way which was accessible to me. He is a very knowledgeable Catholic and is able to both defend and condemn the Church.
...I also like your shoes...
Blame game
In most wars? As combatants?
Can you expand? Also on your own and your family's experience of war?
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Religion is responsible for most of the wars and troubles that have ever been upon the planet Earth.
Who is responsible for religion?
People who believe in God.
Therefore people who believe in God are responsible for most of the wars and problems.
I believe in God.
Therefore I and all the other ignorant and stupid people like myself who believe in God are responsible for most of the world's problems.
It just gets boring ...
Who is responsible for religion?
People who believe in God.
Therefore people who believe in God are responsible for most of the wars and problems.
I believe in God.
Therefore I and all the other ignorant and stupid people like myself who believe in God are responsible for most of the world's problems.
It just gets boring ...
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I find it a bit unfair of you to presume people on this thread will generally think this of you.
I liked it when you pointed out personal responsibility in your relationship with God. I think it would be courteous to extend the same responsibility to your relationship with your fellow human beings.