I would like to follow it deeper. Religion is the cause of most the world's problems? Can we start there?
I'm on a journey, hello. :)
- Thread starter stellaluna
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What responsibility??
Not in most wars. But yes, as combatants.
My wife's maternal ancestors were murdered in the Holocaust. Her grandmother grew up an adopted orphan.
My grandparents and my parents were all refugees, displaced from their former homes. Both of my granddads were disabled from the war, one committed suicide, the other had what we'd now call severe PTSD. My grandmothers, uncles, aunts, and parents all had traumatic experiences during their flight from various advancing armies. I grew up with dysfunctional parents struggling with undiagnosed and untreated psychological conditions as a consequence.
I spent my early childhood in a central Asian country which descended into civil war around the time I was six years old. Though I was not exposed to any open hostilities directly, because my family had moved away by then, it still had a profound impact on me, knowing that the people I knew and loved were in danger, and coming to terms with the destruction and violation of places that had been important to me.
This is in no way special or unique. Societies all over the world and even in Europe and North America are still suffering from the many wars that have been fought in the past decades, even if on foreign soil.
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Sure, but let's take it to a separate thread, please? This is still the intro thread of @stellaluna and it got hijacked.
You mean it has happened? Of course it has happened. But it is the normality? It is the exception, not the rule.
Yes, our grandparents and even parents were involved personally in wars. I am extremely sorry for their terrible suffering. How soon we forget, and how soon history repeats itself. But our western generation, in general, has avoided becoming personally involved in war. Have you had to wear a uniform and carry a rifle?
That's the interesting thing about these threads: they develop a life of their own. You could just respond. Yes or no?
Blaming other people for who we are become.
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I was replying to your claim that our generation was "not touched by war". I think this is untrue, and upon your request gave my personal example of how my life was quite deeply touched by war.
I did not write this to elicit commiseration for my family's fate.
You explicitly asked for details.
I did not ask for your pity, however.
Please understand that your insecurity regarding bigots who denigrate the religious is making you lash out at people here who hold no such bigoted views of you.
stellaluna
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You all seem to be fascinating individuals. 
To me there is a difference between hijacking (which definitely occurs) and the natural flow of a conversation/journey. I for one enjoy sitting in my innertube riding the rapids of ebb and flow
And our instigator pipes in
with what I interpret to be a positive reaction...You all seem to be fascinating individuals.
T
The Artis Magistra
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Hello. I think since its not my primary interest I remain unmotivated to focus on that aspect and instead my number one priority is my satisfaction through thorough expression of my thoughts and speech for my initial review as well, the other stuff is a bonus or far secondary. If I start stunting my thinking I fear it will become a habit, maybe a good habit, maybe not. There is no money involved here or anything, so I get maximum pleasure out of the fuller expression. Its totally fine if you don't have time to read all of it, but yeah I don't mind and I'm pleased when people derive any benefit or thought stimulation from my writing if they do, but its not the mission because I don't know these people and may not really care much whether they exist or not or read or not or live or die, just that its a nice thought like "oh someone liked what I wrote, that feels a bit nice to imagine" its just words or ideas, they could be lying (which is weird and unlikely) but it has the same influence on the mind or feelings.
Ok, so the process of stream of consciousness writing helps a person sift and clarify his own ideas to himself? No doubt about that. But this is just what I'm trying to say: why should it be the reader's responsibility to have to follow that process? Shouldn't the writer do the leg-work in order to present the reader with a final idea?
There is an analogy of having to listen to a musician doodling around, when everyone knows it is the musician's job to practice before expecting an audience to listen?
Whatever -- each to his own. It's what makes these forums interesting. Glad you're still around, lol
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T
The Artis Magistra
Guest
I think that Christianity straight from the Bible would be pretty uncomfortable to deal with as a female. I wouldn't be able to cope with practically any of the ways females are dealt with in the text, history, or culture. Its bad enough as it is how people have been taught to treat females and think of them and how they are depicted to confirm these ideas just for having the slightest differences in biological structures and hormones.
I don't even know how you've gotten as far as you have carrying it, but I think its definitely scary knowing only one thing mostly and not trusting or knowing outside of it or even having the strength to defy a structure that has been present from the earliest age and was part of the mechanism by which you communicated and related somewhat to your family through and community as well.
I grew up going to a Christian school that held services often inside the school, but what feels bad and wrong I've become practiced in being vocal about, even if its natural stuff. If I'm to worship a God, then it will be a God of Justice too, and a lot of the stuff in the Bible seems not quite right to me, much more than other religious books even which seem to have better ideas that are at least more fair and ethical and just seeming in comparison, making the Bible in large swathes look frankly vile.
T
The Artis Magistra
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Yeah, God is accessible to those who think and watch and see how things are. Religious philosophy can get tangled up almost like legalities do. How do you suggest one does the God thing vs the other thing?
T
The Artis Magistra
Guest
Many people feel discouraged from prayer when they don't get what they ask for, particularly or quite often dealing with things like death and healing.
I understood RJM to say "pray" rather than "pray for something".
T
The Artis Magistra
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Which brings up an earlier mentioned issue or reminiscent of something discussed in another thread. What the heck is that or what does it mean to do that?
Prayer as far as I'm aware is a request invocation "pray tell".
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pray (v.)
early 13c., "ask earnestly, beg," also (c. 1300) "pray to a god or saint," from Old French preier "to pray" (c.900, Modern French prier), from Vulgar Latin *precare(also source of Italian pregare), from Latinprecari "ask earnestly, beg, entreat," from*prex (plural preces, genitive precis) "prayer, request, entreaty," from PIE root *prek- "to ask, request, entreat."
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*prek-
Proto-Indo-European root meaning "to ask, entreat."
It forms all or part of: deprecate;deprecation; expostulate; imprecate;imprecation; postulate; pray; prayer;precarious; precatory; prithee.
It is the hypothetical source of/evidence for its existence is provided by: Sanskrit prasna-, Avestan frashna- "question;" Sanskritprcchati, Avestan peresaiti "interrogates;" Latin precari "ask earnestly, beg, entreat;" Old Church Slavonic prositi, Lithuanianprašyti "to ask, beg;" Old High Germanfrahen, German fragen, Old English fricgan"to ask" a question.
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ask (v.)
Old English ascian "ask, call for an answer; make a request," from earlier ahsian, from Proto-Germanic *aiskojanan (source also of Old Saxon escon, Old Frisian askia "request, demand, ask," Middle Dutch eiscen, Dutcheisen "to ask, demand," Old High Germaneiscon "to ask (a question)," Germanheischen "to ask, demand"), from PIE *ais-"to wish, desire" (source also of Sanskriticchati "seeks, desires," Armenian aic"investigation," Old Church Slavonic iskati"to seek," Lithuanian ieškau, ieškoti "to seek").
prayer (n.)
c. 1300, from Old French prier "prayer, petition, request" (12c., Modern Frenchprière), from Medieval Latin precaria"petition, prayer," noun use of Latin adjectiveprecaria, fem. of precarius "obtained by prayer, given as a favor," from precari "to ask, beg, pray" (from PIE root *prek- "to ask, entreat"). Related: Prayers.
orate (v.)
c. 1600, "to pray, to plead," from Latinoratus, past participle of orare "speak, pray, plead, speak before a court or assembly" (see orator). The meaning "make a formal speech" emerged c. 1860 in American English as a back-formation of oration. Related: Orated; orating.
worship (n.)
Old English worðscip, wurðscip (Anglian),weorðscipe (West Saxon) "condition of being worthy, dignity, glory, distinction, honor, renown," from weorð "worthy" (seeworth) + -scipe (see -ship). Sense of "reverence paid to a supernatural or divine being" is first recorded c. 1300. The original sense is preserved in the title worshipful"honorable" (c. 1300).
devil-worship (n.)
"the worship of evil spirits or Satan by incantations intended to propitiate them," 1719; see devil + worship (n.). Related
evil-worshipping; devil-worshipper.propitiation (n.)
late 14c., from Late Latin propitiationem(nominative propitiatio) "an atonement," noun of action from past participle stem of Latin propitiare "appease, propitiate," frompropitius "favorable, gracious, kind, well-disposed," from pro- "forward" (see pro-) + stem related to petere "to make for, go to; seek, strive after; ask for, beg, beseech, request" (from PIE root *pet- "to rush, to fly").
appeal (v.)
early 14c., originally in legal sense of "to call" to a higher judge or court, from Anglo-French apeler "to call upon, accuse," Old French apeler "make an appeal" (11c., Modern French appeler), from Latinappellare "to accost, address, appeal to, summon, name," iterative of appellere "to prepare," from ad "to" (see ad-) + pellere "to beat, push, drive" (from PIE root *pel- (5) "to thrust, strike, drive").
TAM, On prayer, tldr, G!d
T
The Artis Magistra
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Thats ok. It wasn't your question anyway I think, I was just providing a collection of background information and etymology to help me understand the alternative version being suggested here, the non-petitionary, non-propitiatory, prayer and worship devoid of external or foreign audience with perceived power or resources one seeks to mine or extract via the process.
I don't understand the problem of pain in the world. God knows. It is about the soul eventually. God may instead give peace or courage to endure.
The only way I know is to ask God to be with me and to take over completely
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