CORONA VIRUS

[muhammad_isa]

I'm glad war isn't on the agenda.

I'm not sure what you mean by that .. on who's agenda?
There certainly seems to be a growing enmity between the west and China.
China is an authoritarian regime. It is not democratic.

I think that China is going to act increasingly hostile over the coming months.

 

[muhammad_isa]

But the majority of the Chinese people do not feel opressed within their own country.

I'm not sure how you know that.
I can only guess. I do know that wealth corrupts, so you might be right.

They don't want to be like Americans. The Chinese people don't want to be freed from their own government

Well that would be hypocricy. What would they not like about the west?
Both nations love power and wealth and don't really care how they obtain it.
eg. manipulation of money markets

In general the people of China are satisfied with their government.

If that is true, then are they oblivious of the disaster that is round the corner?
What makes them "right" and the west "wrong"?

 

[muhammad_isa]

How do you propose we lock down the ports? No travel at all..?

That is extreme. Extreme policies will not ordinarily succeed.
No. For a start, countries have to choose whether to trade with China or not?
Air-travel has been increasing for some years, and is a major factor in the climate-change debate.

Naturally, as China has money to spend, countries have open doors, and want their share.
As I say .. we have to choose .. reversing the process means a significant reduction
in traffic from China, meaning financial loss from tourism, students, and paying more for goods etc.

Either that, or we accept wearing masks is a fact of modern life, and
fail in controlling the runaway climate.

 

[RJM]

I'm not sure how you know that.

My nephew teaches English in Shanghai and his mother was running tour groups to China before this covid crisis put her out of business. They know lots of people in China and travel widely there.

China is an authoritarian regime. It is not democratic.

The Chinese culture is very ancient; they predate Rome by millennia. Chinese were creating art and culture and writing on paper while the Brits were still running around in blue paint and Europeans were knocking rocks together to make fire.

I'm not saying it's all good. There have always been great injustices there. The point is they are Chinese. They don't feel oppressed and they don't want to be western. They don't want to be 'liberated' by the man who lives behind a golden door at the top of a golden tower.

I think that China is going to act increasingly hostile over the coming months.

It's what happens when you keep poking a dragon with a stick, imo.

The west should leave them alone to get on with it, while of course reserving the right to react to any direct aggression or provocation. That's not the same as looking for excuses to get involved in the area -- which is what Trump is doing.

Trump is playing a very dangerous game with China, imo.

 

[muhammad_isa]

My nephew teaches English in Shanghai and his mother was running tour groups to China before this covid crisis put her out of business. They know lots of people in China and travel widely there.

Oh I see .. right you are.
I doubt whether that could have been said a couple of decades ago.

The west should leave them alone to get on with it, while of course reserving the right to react to any direct aggression or provocation. That's not the same as looking for excuses to get involved in the area -- which is what Trump is doing.

I think that it is quite natural that many people in the rest of the world are pretty cheesed off with China..
Getting on with what, though?

I assume you refer to the situation in HongKong..
What about all the other issues, such as military disputes along their borders
of land and sea?

 

[Thomas]

There certainly seems to be a growing enmity between the west and China.

Well on might say China's flexing her muscles, and populist leaders especially need an enemy to point the people at.

Trump has decided he likes Putin, so Russia's on the back burner.
The UK — and BoJo in particular — are too much in thrall to Russian money to make too much of a fuss.
It was Brussels, now the boogey-man is China.

China is an authoritarian regime. It is not democratic.

To be fair though, that's never worried the UK nor America as far as policy goes. We're hand in glove with authoritarian regimes.

I think that China is going to act increasingly hostile over the coming months.

Yes, probably right.

 

[Thomas]

If that is true, then are they oblivious of the disaster that is round the corner?

Why are we, who are a far stronger position to do something about it?

What makes them "right" and the west "wrong"?

And vice versa

 

[RJM]

https://www.rollingstone.com/politi...id-19-end-of-american-era-wade-davis-1038206/


“… To this day, American troops are deployed in 150 countries. Since the 1970s, China has not once gone to war; the U.S. has not spent a day at peace. President Jimmy Carter recently noted that in its 242-year history, America has enjoyed only 16 years of peace, making it, as he wrote, “the most warlike nation in the history of the world.” Since 2001, the U.S. has spent over $6 trillion on military operations and war, money that might have been invested in the infrastructure of home. China, meanwhile, built its nation, pouring more cement every three years than America did in the entire 20th century.

As America policed the world, the violence came home. On D-Day, June 6th, 1944, the Allied death toll was 4,414; in 2019, domestic gun violence had killed that many American men and women by the end of April. By June of that year, guns in the hands of ordinary Americans had caused more casualties than the Allies suffered in Normandy in the first month of a campaign that consumed the military strength of five nations.

More than any other country, the United States in the post-war era lionized the individual at the expense of community and family ... In wide swaths of America, the family as an institution lost its grounding. By the 1960s, 40 percent of marriages were ending in divorce. Only six percent of American homes had grandparents living beneath the same roof as grandchildren; elders were abandoned to retirement homes.

... The average American father spends less than 20 minutes a day in direct communication with his child. By the time a youth reaches 18, he or she will have spent fully two years watching television or staring at a laptop screen, contributing to an obesity epidemic that the Joint Chiefs have called a national security crisis.

Only half of Americans report having meaningful, face-to-face social interactions on a daily basis. The nation consumes two-thirds of the world’s production of antidepressant drugs. The collapse of the working-class family has been responsible in part for an opioid crisis that has displaced car accidents as the leading cause of death for Americans under 50 …” etc

 

[RJM]

I assume you refer to the situation in HongKong..

I was not referring to Hong Kong particularly.

What about all the other issues, such as military disputes along their borders
of land and sea?

We may not like it, but that is Chinese business. The West can object, but has no right to interfere because China is a sovereign state. The UK has offered to take in people who want to leave Hong Kong.

China pursues its 'One China Policy' that includes Tibet and Hong Kong, and eventually also Taiwan, I'm not saying it's good or morally right. In fact it's extremely ugly. We might not like it, but we don't like what's happening in a lot of other countries too?

 

[Thomas]

That is extreme. Extreme policies will not ordinarily succeed.

Are you sure? Are we not moving into the politics of extremism?

I ask because I keep wondering where is liberalism in the political debates today? I can't see it.

As for China and the UK, check out this baby, précis below: —

Chinese high-net worth individuals (HNWI) are currently putting 12.5% of their wealth into overseas assets, London the most popular destination.

UK is now the number one choice for Chinese students studying abroad. This, Di Lieto says, is further boosted by the recent 'extremely popular decision' of Boris Johnson’s government to extend the post-study overseas student work visa to two years.

Chinese millionaires are being granted Tier 1 Home Office residency visas in record numbers (Tier 1 visas require proof of £2 million in liquid assets).

Chinese expats in the UK will increase as residency in the United States becomes less appealing, and harder to achieve.

In the £1 million-plus residential property range, China has grown from 3% of UK international sales in 2013 to 13.4% last year

In Kensington & Chelsea and Westminster alone, Chinese buyers spent approximately £500 million on residential property last year.

"America’s trade war with China has significantly increased the number of Chinese students in the UK from 95,000 eighteen months ago to more than 120,000 currently, with numbers expected to continue growing rapidly,"

An apartment central London sold for £5million to a Chinese student at University College.

++

Now, call me a silly old sauage, but should the Chinese regime ever fold up, then:
A: There will be a Beijing Mafia emerge who will snap up all the sources of wealth (as per Russia)
B: London willbecome a centre for transferring money out of the country and generally laundering the gains, again as per.

So either way, we profit! Yae!

I say 'we' ... my daughter is desperately trying to purchase a flat. London is a nightmare ... and if you drive round at night, you can marvel at all the developments that are shrouded in darkness. I once had a taxi driver tell me she regularly passes a massive housing complex on a local route, and she rarely sees a light in a window at night. The entire complex has been purchased by foreign investments, and remains largely empty.

This is happening everywhere.

The single biggest property owner in Kentish Town, a 'des res' part of North London, is the ex Head of Internal Security from a Far Eastern country, currently on a global wanted list for his crimes.

Just this week BoJo has outlined plans to 'relax' building regulations which means there will be less requirement for property developers to provide 'social' (affordable) or 'first-time buyer' housing, so they can concentrate on expensive, high-return developments for overseas investors.

Or Chinese investors can build luxury complexes without too much red tape ...

 

[Thomas]

Oh, and the masks?

If it's between you and me wearing a mask and Chinese money, or no masks and no money? (And let's face it, no-one else is investing in the UK)

Which way d'you think BoJo's gonna go?

 

[RJM]

The US China ring of steel.

The full (2hr) John Pilger movie is worth the time. Essential actually, imo:

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

I'm not sure what you mean by that .. on who's agenda?

I'm glad it isn't on your agenda.

I think China has done pretty well these dacades, I wouldn't think they changed too much up. But ditatorships are unpredictable, so I put little thought on them.

For a start, countries have to choose whether to trade with China or not?

But only directed at China? Every country in the world is infected, travelers are just as likely to be infected anywhere. The largest factor must be how responsible the traveler is themselves.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I was not referring to Hong Kong particularly.
We may not like it, but that is Chinese business. The West can object, but has no right to interfere..

Err .. no.
We have to look at the background to fully understand what might be going on.
If, for example, China is becoming big-headed [ I'm not saying that the west might not be big-headed],
and intends to dominate the South China seas, expand its territory in Asia, and become the most
powerul nation on earth, it is most SURELY the rest of the world's business!

US just happens to be the leading power in the rest of the world.
Almighty God gives sovereignty to whom He wills, and takes it away from whom He wills.
The UN has a role to play, but US has the most muscle and influence.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..UK is now the number one choice for Chinese students studying abroad
...
Chinese millionaires are being granted Tier 1 Home Office residency visas in record numbers (Tier 1 visas require proof of £2 million in liquid assets).

Chinese expats in the UK will increase as residency in the United States becomes less appealing, and harder to achieve...

I am well aware of what is happening here in UK, thankyou.
We need to make a choice. One that China might be infuriated by.
Do we choose China or US?
I think you'll find that Boris [ or any other PM, regardless of poiltical persuasion ] will now begin distancing
themselves from China, and follow the US. It's a no-brainer, I would have thought.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If it's between you and me wearing a mask and Chinese money..

How long do YOU think that the west will accept mask-wearing?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'm glad it isn't on your agenda.

Thankyou. The object of our existence is to promote peace .. establish peace.

But only directed at China? Every country in the world is infected, travelers are just as likely to be infected anywhere. The largest factor must be how responsible the traveler is themselves.

I'm really referring to long-term, which in these days isn't long at all. Things happen very quickly in modern times.
It is becoming common-place for viruses to "spill-out" from China. They have serious public-health issues.
We need to protect ourselves from this "cancer"

 

[muhammad_isa]

We may not like it, but that is Chinese business.

I quoted from Revelation 17:

15 And he said to me, ‘The waters that you saw, where the whore is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages.
16And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the whore; they will make her desolate and naked; they will devour her flesh and burn her up with fire.
17For God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by agreeing to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.

Is it that far-fetched to think that it refers to China? It has gone from "rags to riches" in a few decades,
and its goal appears to be one of worldly power & wealth, regardless of the consequences
[ for their own people and others ]

Who do YOU think it refers to .. and when?
Some insignificant nation or in 100's of years time?
It also equates to "the west" [ global secular system: leader being US ] as the beast..
..not an uncommon thought.

 

[Thomas]

Do we choose China or US?

Hang on, are you saying we got out of Europe to govern ourselves, only to end up being told what we can and cannot do by the US?

I think we'll do what we usually do and try and accommodate both.

I think you'll find that Boris [ or any other PM, regardless of poiltical persuasion ] will now begin distancing themselves from China, and follow the US. It's a no-brainer, I would have thought.

For Boris, only because of back-bench pressure. But that's public politics. Behind the scenes, for the Tories, China money is welcome, same way Russian money was when we were shoulder to shoulder with America against Russia.

 

[Thomas]

How long do YOU think that the west will accept mask-wearing?

I think this is one of those issues like the mandatory wearing seat belts, or asking people to wash their hands after going to the toilet.

I am astounded by people who treat this as such an end-of-the-world issue. What is the problem?

The science started as anecdotal, and now the evidence is there. It's why people who handle food should wear gloves/masks/hairnets, etc. It's why surgeons wash and robe up.

Japan etc., wear masks because it's simply polite and good manners to keep your germs to yourself.

I doubt there's a single sound, rational and logical reason not to wear a mask.