'An Affair On Golgotha' -- a refutation

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Quoting one or 2 verses of scripture is not the way to determine the truth.
Many denominations cherry-pick to "prove" their creeds

I do assume you are aware that the quotes you posted are not authorised Baha'i Writings?

If not, you now know you have not posted what Baha'u'llah's Message imparts to us.

Regards Tony

 

[muhammad_isa]

I do assume you are aware that the quotes you posted are not authorised Baha'i Writings?

I'm sure they aren't
Nevertheless, you can presumably see my point.
Who are we to believe? Are we expected to believe people who claim to be divine or "the messiah"?
If the messiah could be ANYBODY, then God would be leaving us in confusion, with divided authority.

No .. that makes no sense.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I'm sure they aren't
Nevertheless, you can presumably see my point.
Who are we to believe? Are we expected to believe people who claim to be divine or "the messiah"?
If the messiah could be ANYBODY, then God would be leaving us in confusion, with divided authority.

No .. that makes no sense.

The Key here is that we can choose justice of hearsay.

If we want justice we would determine the facts for our own self. We then get to listen to what each claimant has put forward.

That is why God sends Messengers, as each of us is responsible for our own decisions, once we reach the age of maturity.

Humanity as a whole is not at the age of maturity, it is passing from adolescents. It is time we stood up and faced our pass as a united humanity.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

The Key here is that we can choose justice of hearsay.

If we want justice we would determine the facts for our own self. We then get to listen to what each claimant has put forward.

When commentating upon the scriptures of another religion, it is hopefully necessary to quote the real ones, even if we don't really understand them properly in context

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

When commentating upon the scriptures of another religion, it is hopefully necessary to quote the real ones, even if we don't really understand them properly in context

I see that is a fair and just statement.

In that way we all get to look at the passage, in the light it was given and not in the light another wants us to see.

The more we look at the pure Word without preconceived ideas, the more we might be able to find within.

Regards Tony

 

[muhammad_isa]

The Key here is that we can choose justice of hearsay.
If we want justice we would determine the facts for our own self. We then get to listen to what each claimant has put forward.

We can choose anything we like..
We can listen to anybody we like. That has no bearing on the truth.
..what I mean is, it is not about what "seems good to us" .

It is easy to become a member of a cult .. just follow what seems good to you at the time.
God does not keep chopping and changing his message. He sends messengers to
remind us. For what reason could God have to cancel what He prescribes in the Qur'an?
For what reason could God have to cancel what He prescribes in the Torah?

eg. "The eating of pork is not forbidden in the Baha'i Teachings."

 

[RJM]

I see that is a fair and just statement.

In that way we all get to look at the passage, in the light it was given and not in the light another wants us to see.

The more we look at the pure Word without preconceived ideas, the more we might be able to find within.

Regards Tony

Words will forever be used out of context. Scriptures will always be debated. But to quote non-existent scripture is wrong, imo

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

God does not keep chopping and changing his message. He sends messengers to
remind us. For what reason could God have to cancel what He prescribes in the Qur'an?
For what reason could God have to cancel what He prescribes in the Torah?

Baha'u'llah has provided those answers.

Would you like to hear some of them?

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Words will forever be used out of context. Scriptures will always be debated. But to quote non-existent scripture is wrong, imo

To be clear, the issue with the quote is the interpretation of an existing scripture.

This has been the tactic of enemies of the Baha'i Faith.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

To be clear, the issue with the quote is the interpretation of an existing scripture.

Can you sort it out here?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Baha'u'llah has provided those answers.

I'm sure he has .. I doubt whether they make any sense though.

The Baháʼí Faith had its roots in the Bábí Religion which was started by the Báb in the mid-19th century in Persia. Originally Bábís adhered to the Islamic laws, but this changed when the Báb wrote a Bábí code of law in the Bayán, which replaced them

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I'm sure he has .. I doubt whether they make any sense though.

I am happy to leave it at that. If one day you want to know, please ask.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Can you sort it out here?

Translating any writings from Persian or Arabic into English is not an easy task. Sometimes a literal translation does not convey the spiritual intent.

Many enemies of the Baha'i Faith have used literal translations of words to give the meaning they want people to see, but it is not what Baha'u'llah was offering.

This has been an issue with all scriptures and in this age, we can only use scripture that has been interpreted and translated under the Covernant.

More are being translated each day, but it takes time and now, as we need a group of scholars to do research when they translate. They have to see how a word was used in context, in writings that have been officially translated.

There is a lot to cover in this topic.

Regards Tony

 

[muhammad_isa]

I am happy to leave it at that. If one day you want to know, please ask.

Specific religious social teachings (for example, the direction of prayer, or dietary restrictions) may be revoked by a subsequent manifestation so that a more appropriate requirement for the time and place may be established.

..so pork was forbidden in the Torah, and then Jesus said "it's not what you put into your mouth but what comes out of it" interpreted by Christians to mean pork is no longer forbidden, and then Muhammad revealed in Quran that "eating pork is an abomination" so God strictly forbade it again, and then Bahia law evolved from Islamic law to Bahai law in which it is no longer an abomination.

Pretty suspicious by itself, without looking into any other matter.
Either eating pork is "an abomination" or it is not. One cannot claim that God keeps on changing his mind on this issue.

 

[RJM]

We like to eat vegetarian animals, hence the dichotomy about pork. Hindus believe cows are sacred, hence they don't eat beef, although cows are vegetarian. Poor old sheeps get chowed by everyone. Do you think God sends people to eternal fire for what they eat?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Do you think God sends people to eternal fire for what they eat?

I don't think God literally sends anybody anywhere

"God does not do the least bit of injustice to anyone, but people wrong themselves."

There is a consequence for everything we do.
Almighty God told Adam not to eat the apple .. but satan convinced him that it was "cool"

 

[RJM]

I don't think God literally sends anybody anywhere

"God does not do the least bit of injustice to anyone, but people wrong themselves."

There is a consequence for everything we do.
Almighty God told Adam not to eat the apple .. but satan convinced him that it was "cool"

I do agree. Of course the Adam and Eve story fills libraries with discussion of the meaning and symbolism. Pork needs to be properly cooked and doesn't store for long, and so its consumption may have been dangerous for tribal people.

But it's always been fine for Celts, ask Asterisk and Obelix. So it's often a question of culture. Pythagoras thought it wicked to eat beans.

The point is that different cultures and religions have different creeds and taboos and beliefs. Perhaps it's not all that important to God what anyone actually eats, but what is important is the covenant, and the mark of the covenant? Which is possibly what you are saying anyway?

I agree that Baha'i seems to be an offshoot of Islam, referring backwards to Islam, as does Christianity towards Judaism?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I do agree. Of course the Adam and Eve story fills libraries with discussion of the meaning and symbolism.

That's right. The account in Genesis is an ancient scripture. It is open to interpretation .. as are all scriptures.

The point is that different cultures and religions have different creeds and taboos and beliefs. Perhaps it's not all that important to God what anyone actually eats, but what is important is the covenant..

Hmm .. I don't look upon religion as a series of covenants to particular tribes. Yes, there are discrepancies among religions, but much of that could be attributed to "chinese whispers" over time. There are Christians who don't believe that Jesus abrogated "the law", which gives us continuity from Moses through Jesus to Muhammad.

I agree that Baha'i seems to be an offshoot of Islam, referring backwards to Islam, as does Christianity towards Judaism?

It looks that way

 

[muhammad_isa]

Talking about covenants .. I do agree with Paul that the issue of circumcision is not so important as the Pharisees were making out.
I do believe that it is a great blessing, but not "an article of faith".

When it comes to eating pork, there is no need to do so, unless we are starving to death.
I therefore conclude that not following what Jesus and his disciples actually DID, is down to human desire.

When it comes to alcohol, I don't think anybody believes that Jesus used to get drunk. The Quran informs people
that getting drunk is satan's handiwork. I think many people working in A & E would agree with that.

 

[RJM]

There are Christians who don't believe that Jesus abrogated "the law", which gives us continuity from Moses through Jesus to Muhammad.

Christ did not abrogate divine law. He restored it. He showed by his life how men had come to exaggerate the written letter of the law more than the spirit of the law, and to have substituted blood for true sacrifice. Many other things.