'An Affair On Golgotha' -- a refutation

[muhammad_isa]

..He showed by his life how men had come to exaggerate the written letter of the law more than the spirit of the law..

That's it. People tend to cherry-pick what they like and oppress others.
..while at the same time ignoring more important things..
..the incident of the money-lenders in the temple springs to mind

 

[RJM]

while at the same time ignoring more important things..

Facts, for instance?

..the incident of the money-lenders in the temple springs to mind

Why do you think he whipped them? They were selling doves for ritual blood sacrifice. Christ had a thing or two to say about it. What do you think it means?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why do you think he whipped them? They were selling doves for ritual blood sacrifice. Christ had a thing or two to say about it. What do you think it means?

The cleansing of the Temple narrative tells of Jesus expelling the merchants and the money changers from the Temple, and occurs in all four canonical gospels of the New Testament. The scene is a common motif in Christian art.
In this account, Jesus and his disciples travel to Jerusalem for Passover, where Jesus expels the merchants and consumers from the Temple, accusing them of turning the Temple into "a den of thieves" through their commercial activities.
- wikipedia

A common interpretation is that Jesus was reacting to the practice of money changers routinely cheating the people, but Marvin L. Krier Mich observes that a good deal of money was stored at the temple, where it could be loaned by the wealthy to the poor who were in danger of losing their land to debt. The Temple establishment therefore co-operated with the aristocracy in the exploitation of the poor. One of the first acts of the First Jewish-Roman War was the burning of the debt records in the archives

Basically, I agree with him. It was in the so-called "gentile court" and Jesus did not agree
with them being fleeced. i.e. we have no duty to the gentiles

 

[RJM]

Sorry what does that mean? I asked what you think it means? Not what Wikipedia says ...

 

[muhammad_isa]

Sorry what does that mean? I asked what you think it means? Not what Wikipedia says ...

see above .. "Basically, I agree with him. It was in the so-called 'gentile court' and Jesus did not agree
with them being fleeced. i.e. we have no duty to the gentiles"

 

[RJM]

see above .. "Basically, I agree with him. It was in the so-called 'gentile court' and Jesus did not agree
with them being fleeced. i.e. we have no duty to the gentiles"

So Jesus whipped the gentiles out? For lending money to the Jewish people of Jerusalem?

 

[muhammad_isa]

So Jesus whipped the gentiles out? For lending money to the Jewish people of Jerusalem?

Uhhh, no

According to Mark 11:16, Jesus then put an embargo on people carrying any merchandise through the Temple, a sanction which would have disrupted all commerce.

That means that it was the other way round. The Jews were in charge of what was going on in the "gentile court".

Professor David Landry of the University of St. Thomas suggests that "the importance of the episode is signaled by the fact that within a week of this incident, Jesus is dead. Matthew, Mark, and Luke agree that this is the event that functioned as the 'trigger' for Jesus' death."

Indeed, that is why I believe Jesus was "shopped" to the Romans by the temple authorities.
..same old story .. isn't it always about power and wealth?

We can't take it with us

 

[RJM]

Indeed, that is why I believe Jesus was "shopped" to the Romans by the temple authorities.
..same old story .. isn't it always about power and wealth?

We can't take it with us

You scare me. Truly. Not for the reasons you would probably like ...

 

[muhammad_isa]

You scare me. Truly. Not for the reasons you would probably like ...

It didn't do them any good, anyway.
The temple got destroyed soon after. Almighty God is the Sovereign and He is able to guide whomsoever He wills.
The most important thing is what happens after we die.

 

[RJM]

The most important thing is what happens after we die.

The most important thing is that the limitation which you require to impose upon Christ is invalid. Christ is independent of your judgement, and not linked in any way to your approval. But it's all been said and just becomes a roundabout ... a really scary roundabout

Good to understand

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

..so pork was forbidden in the Torah, and then Jesus said "it's not what you put into your mouth but what comes out of it" interpreted by Christians to mean pork is no longer forbidden, and then Muhammad revealed in Quran that "eating pork is an abomination" so God strictly forbade it again, and then Bahia law evolved from Islamic law to Bahai law in which it is no longer an abomination.

Pretty suspicious by itself, without looking into any other matter.
Either eating pork is "an abomination" or it is not. One cannot claim that God keeps on changing his mind on this issue.

This is a major topic in itself. Its solution is our obedience to God does as God chooses.

Baha'u'llah in the Book of Laws has offered this;

"... God hath, likewise, as a bounty from His presence, abolished the concept of "uncleanness", whereby divers things and peoples have been held to be impure. He, of a certainty, is the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Generous. Verily, all created things were immersed in the sea of purification when, on that first day of Ridvan, We shed upon the whole of creation the splendours of Our most excellent Names and Our most exalted Attributes.... " Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 47

So as the eating of pork or meat is not forbidden, we can look for more guidance.

We can further discuss this if you are interested. There is much guidance in the Baha'i Writings about health and diet, which I see will guide medicine in the future. We may have to consider that nature provides the cures and we may be doing more harm than good by changing genetic structures.

Regards Tony

 

[muhammad_isa]

Verily, all created things were immersed in the sea of purification when, on that first day of Ridvan, We shed upon the whole of creation the splendours of Our most excellent Names and Our most exalted Attributes.... " Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 47

Well, satan is "a created being" or do you think otherwise?
I wouldn't agree that satan has been "purified"

 

[RJM]

This is a major topic in itself. Its solution is our obedience to God does as God chooses.

Baha'u'llah in the Book of Laws has offered this;

"... God hath, likewise, as a bounty from His presence, abolished the concept of "uncleanness", whereby divers things and peoples have been held to be impure. He, of a certainty, is the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Generous. Verily, all created things were immersed in the sea of purification when, on that first day of Ridvan, We shed upon the whole of creation the splendours of Our most excellent Names and Our most exalted Attributes.... " Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 47

So as the eating of pork or meat is not forbidden, we can look for more guidance.

We can further discuss this if you are interested. There is much guidance in the Baha'i Writings about health and diet, which I see will guide medicine in the future. We may have to consider that nature provides the cures and we may be doing more harm than good by changing genetic structures.

Regards Tony

Save your breath. Words are no use. They cannot listen. They only want to make everybody else the same as they are. They're not really interested in truth. Just in forcing the words of their own book upon the rest of the world

 

[muhammad_isa]

The most important thing is that the limitation which you require to impose upon Christ is invalid.

Important to YOU
My life and my death are for God, and God alone.

Are you saying that I am wrong to think that Jesus was "shopped" to the Romans
for worldly reasons?

 

[RJM]

Important to YOU
My life and my death are for God, and God alone.

Well then for God's sake why don't you just get on with it, instead of trying to make everybody believe what you do?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Well then for God's sake why don't you just get on with it, instead of trying to make everybody believe what you do?

I am not trying to "make" anybody believe as I do. I am discussing my understanding of
Abrahamic faith, quoting wikipedia when I think it warrants it.

Are you saying that I am wrong to think that Jesus was "shopped" to the Romans
for worldly reasons?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Well, satan is "a created being" or do you think otherwise?
I wouldn't agree that satan has been "purified"

I do not see Satan as a created being.

I see Satan is manifested by lack of our Faith in God and practicing God's laws. Satan does not exist, it is lack of good.

Same as darkness is only lack of light.

Another big topic.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Are you saying that I am wrong to think that Jesus was "shopped" to the Romans
for worldly reasons?

You keep saying: are you saying?

I don't know, nor do you. You're full of speculation masquerading as truth. What I really do not understand, is your crusade against Christianity? You keep trying every dodge. Why is this so important to you, if you have your own religion and your own belief, your own quiet confidence in God -- what's your mission? Why are you so offensive and shallow insulting of other beliefs?

How do you think the Wikipedia quotes are going down with people who spend their whole lives studying the subjects and actually reading and rereading and deeply studying the stuff you're making it your mission here to rubbish?

You don't listen to what anyone says. You're not interested. You just stomp on with the same old points that have been repeatedly dealt with long ago.

I really don't understand. And it actually frightens me, if this is what's happening on a relatively civilised and open debate, what it must be like out there, with no controls.

It frightens me. Truly. Goodnight

 

[muhammad_isa]

Satan does not exist..

Hmm..

The Bahá’í teachings explain that “God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man.”

..but as God has created mankind and we are capable of evil, then that does not change anything.
One can argue that HUMANS have not been "purified". We are all capable of evil.

..hence your quote is not true.

i.e. "Verily, all created things were immersed in the sea of purification when, on that first day of Ridvan, We shed upon the whole of creation the splendours of Our most excellent Names and Our most exalted Attributes"

 

[muhammad_isa]

What I really do not understand, is your crusade against Christianity?

No .. that is by your definition. I consider myself a Christian too.

You don't listen to what anyone says. You're not interested..

I do .. I'm very interested. It's just that I often disagree with their point of view

..if this is what's happening on a relatively civilised and open debate, what it must be like out there, with no controls.

Indeed, the devil seeks to cause division between mankind.
We should not become angry and act like the devil. Almighty God loves the peacemakers.