'An Affair On Golgotha' -- a refutation

[Thomas]

All we know is that Jesus made it very clear that the flesh amounts to nothing ...

Well if addressing that to a Christian, you'd have to qualify it, because I'm not sure the Scripture upholds that?

In Genesis we read: "And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul." (2:7). Peopkle tend to read that as an ensouled body, and regard it as a fundamental duality, body and soul, of which the body is effectively little more than a vehicle.

The Hebrew and, I believe, informed Christian view, is that the person is a corporate entity, of body and soul. One view is the body is the means by which the soul is present in the world, as by extension life is the means by which God manifests Himself (as love is the mean by which God reveals Himself). We have to preserve against overly Hellenic dualisms, for whom the material world was little more than the plaything of the gods, and the gnostics who regard created nature as essentially evil.

... and it is the Spirit that is life and gives life.

Indeed so, but that does not devalue the body, any more than creation. One might say the Spirit is life, and the body is the means by which that life 'lives' in the world. In Genesis we are told God saw what He created, and saw that it was good (Genesis 1:3, 10, 12, 18, 21 & 25), indeed very good (v31). Both The Hebrew and Christian scriptures value human life, body and soul.

To build a doctrine based on making the flesh important, to me was wrong and I see Muhammad corrected that misunderstanding.

OK. But we see a doctrine of the spirit that makes the flesh unimportant as wrong. There is a priority, an order, but that does not devalue intrinsic worth. To me the Incarnation and its implication is one of the fundamental Revelations of God in Christ, which Mohammed misunderstood. It seems his teachers in Christianity were Nestorian, and that doctrine – which we hold as erroneous – led him astray with regard to his understanding of the Incarnation and by extension, the Triune nature of the Godhead.

I can now take the bread of knowledge of Christ and the wine of devotion to Christ. And the fire of the Love of Christ, without thinking in the flesh, but see it as unity with a body of believers.

Again, your beliefs and interpretations are yours.

For Catholics and Orthodox the Eucharist is of a different order, and speaks first and foremost of a union in and with the Divine. We see it as a unity with Christ, in Christ, the Corpus Mysticum, not a unity, but a union.

 

[RJM]

Great .. must be right then
Clearly, I'm not "the Christian". I don't follow "the Church". I follow what I believe Jesus followed.
I believe Jesus taught the Lord's prayer, and did not pray to himself

He taught a lot of stuff -- in context.

However he left the Lord's Prayer to his disciples. There are multiple passages quoted in this thread, but ... sigh ... in order to labour the point:

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?"
John 14:9

And then you are going to say: Oh but that was John, and John was wrong. But you're going to keep the Lord's prayer.

This is actually just getting so boring now ...

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I am not saying it is true in all the details, and I am not equating Babaji with the Christ -- but it is to put forward the concept of an immortal spiritual being in control of his own physical manifestation and appearance?

I see God does as God chooses and I also see that the Messenger is subject to God's Will.

They one and all are 100% given over to God's Will.

Cross references
Matthew 26:39 : Matt 20:22 Matt 26:42; Mark 14:36; Luke 22:42; John 6:38

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

I see God does as God chooses and I also see that the Messenger is subject to God's Will.

They one and all are 100% given over to God's Will.

Cross references
Matthew 26:39 : Matt 20:22 Matt 26:42; Mark 14:36; Luke 22:42; John 6:38

Regards Tony

Yes but the closer the messanger or angel is to God, the more that messenger effectively is to me the voice and the will and the action of God?

There is always a higher truth. If a spirit angelic being reaches down to me -- into my own life -- effectively for me is God -- and only that being itself is able to declare the fact, and to put me right: No, I am merely the arm of God -- so worship him, not me?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Well if addressing that to a Christian, you'd have to qualify it, because I'm not sure the Scripture upholds that?

Good morning Thomas, I hope all is well.

I see John 6:63 is worth considering, "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life."

Also Romans 8:6 "For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace."

There are many passages in the Bible that tell us when we turn to the desires of flesh, then we turn away from our true selves, which is spirit. This is what makes us more than animal.

We are given by God a Rational Soul.

A good study is NDE experiences and also dreams. The Body lies motionless, yet the Spirit traverses time and space, not needing the body or the senses.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Yes but the closer the messanger or angel is to God, the more that messenger effectively is to me the voice and the will and the action of God?

There is always a higher truth. If an angelic being reaches down to me -- into my own life -- effectively for me that being effectively is God -- and only that being itself is able to declare the fact, and to put me right: No, I am merely the arm of God?

I see God chooses the Messenger and Chooses how and when they will Appear to us.

The Baha'i Writings show us that the Messengers are all we can know of God and they are the 'Self of God' amongst us. They one and all are eminations of the Holy Spirit, thus they are the Word made Flesh.

They one and all exist in that Holy Spirit.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Yes but the closer the messanger or angel is to God, the more that messenger effectively is to me the voice and the will and the action of God?

There is always a higher truth. If a spirit angelic being reaches down to me -- into my own life -- effectively for me is God -- and only that being itself is able to declare the fact, and to put me right: No, I am merely the arm of God -- worship him, not me?

How God interacts with Humanity has been explained in much detail in the Baha'i Writings.

Many Holy Souls have passed from this world, given their lives for Truth in Faith. In the Baha'i Writings they are called the Concourse on High. It is this Concourse on High that eminates all that is possible for us to acheive in Arts and Sciences etc.

It is a big and fascinating topic. Sorry I have to go to work, but have a great day.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Matthew 26:39 : Matt 20:22 Matt 26:42; Mark 14:36; Luke 22:42; John 6:38

For he could pass the cup, yet chose to drink it -- both fully God/divine and fully human

 

[RJM]

is a big and fascinating topic. Sorry I have to go to work, but have a great day

Ah well, we're all strictly locked down here now in the UK, effective house arrest for most of us, extended just today until it seems March 8th for earliest school return and then perhaps gradual easing of restrictions -- which may explain why things are sometimes getting a bit aggravated and heated around here -- so thanks for your understanding and participation, brother

 

[muhammad_isa]

He taught a lot of stuff -- in context.

However he left the Lord's Prayer to his disciples..

Are you saying that Jesus had no need to pray?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

For he could pass the cup, yet chose to drink it -- both fully God/divine and fully human

I hope for you good health and safety in these changing and challenging times.

I see the Messenger is all we can and will know of and about God, but I see they are not God.

The Messenger to me is the Polished mirror which we see God reflected from, we see the Attributes but we do not see or know of the Essence of God.

Thus in that station, they are God.

But Does the Sun descend into the Mirror? We know what would happen if the sun moved closer to earth, we would perish.

There is a lot written and explained on this topic.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Are you saying that Jesus had no need to pray?

He prayed aloud in context for those in hearing to understand in context:

"Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”

So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”

When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.

Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go.”
John 11:40-43

 

[muhammad_isa]

He prayed aloud in context for those in hearing to understand in context..

Why couldn't you have just said "yes, of course Jesus prayed"

R. A. Torrey [ an American Evangelist ] notes that Jesus prayed early in the morning as well as all night, that he prayed both before and after the great events of his life, and that he prayed "when life was unusually busy".

Jesus, peace be with him, prayed so other people could hear him?
I've heard it all now

 

[RJM]

Jesus, peace be with him, prayed so other people could hear him?
I've heard it all now

In this instance in context yes. To demonstrate to the hearers that he and the Father are one. That he is not raising Lazarus from the dead by his own human power. That's what the gospel says. So?

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I and my Father are one.

Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
(John 10:27-30 and 36-38)

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-Chapter-10/ (whole chapter)

 

[RJM]

Jesus did pray. There are gospel passages. He sometimes needed to be alone to pray. And in the Garden of Getsemane he sweated blood while praying. But then the issue turns to what prayer really is. Jesus was without sin.

On the cross he said: 'My God, why have you forsaken me?'

And his final words were: 'Father, into your hands I commend my spirit.'

He was fully human after all. But that doesn't mean you can turn it around: 'So what you are really saying is ...'

Because it's not as simple as that. The life of Christ encompassed many symbolic mysteries. We have the mysteries of the rosary including the crucifixion and the Resurrection, which you reject.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Because it's not as simple as that. The life of Christ encompassed many symbolic mysteries..

Fine, if that is what you want to think .. but I prefer to believe that God would not expect us to believe a creed that can not be explained.
Again, I refer to the foundation of faith .. "God is One" .. that is not a mystery to me. Foundations are too important to
weave mysteries around them.

 

[RJM]

Fine, if that is what you want to think .. but I prefer to believe that God would not expect us to believe a creed that can not be explained.
Again, I refer to the foundation of faith .. "God is One" .. that is not a mystery to me. Foundations are too important to
weave mysteries around them.

That is your right to think and prefer to believe what you want. That doesn't make you right.

Jesus Christ is far more than what the Quran allows him to be, in spite of what the Quran limits him to be. He does not require the consent or permission of the Quran.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Jesus Christ is far more than what the Quran allows him to be, in spite of what the Quran limits him to be. He does not require the consent or permission of the Quran.

You are showing your bias. I do not mention the Qur'an, yet you keep referring to it.
The fact remains that Roman Christianity is manufactured by humans. The foundation of faith is NOT what Jesus agreed i.e. the first commandment
It is the Nicene creed, which contradicts it

If you say that you agree with the first commandment, then I don't know why you should be upset.
Oh wait .. you think this 'One God' is Jesus .. and it's all a mystery .. oh well.

 

[RJM]

You are showing your bias. I do not mention the Qur'an, yet you keep referring to it.

You do not have to mention it. But it underlies everything you say here.

The fact remains that Roman Christianity is manufactured by humans.

It is God driven. God creates synchronicity. If it was manufactured by humans it would not have survived so long.

The foundation of faith is NOT what Jesus agreed i.e. the first commandment ... If you say that you agree with the first commandment, then I don't know why you should be upset.

Yes, yes, yes. But you like to oversimplify. The birds and the bees is the entry point for children to start to grow and understand life's mysteries. It gets more complicated. Christ did not deny it. Surely I don't need to go back through the thread and re-paste all the NT quotes again here?

It is the Nicene creed, which contradicts it

I do not say the Nicene creed. Many Catholics prefer the Apostles Creed:

"I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son Our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into Hell; the third day He rose again from the dead;
He ascended into Heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting"

Oh wait .. you think this 'One God' is Jesus .. and it's all a mystery .. oh well.

Oversimplification of the mystery of the Christ that has spoken to kings and beggars and the wisest minds and inspired the greatest art and literature, and filled libraries with books for two millennia and still going strong

 

[RJM]

My own belief is that ‘God’ recedes forever. There are higher and lower angels and spirit beings. There are spirit lords of worlds, that to the inhabitants appear to be God, but who in fact change and move onwards and upwards – ever closer to the unreachable light. So the ‘God’ of this world may not be the same 'God' as 2000 or 20 000 years ago, but is nevertheless so high and close to the divine, that we pray to ‘him’ and call him God.

All our prayers reach up to God. Our prayers have a spiritual effect. Our scriptures are maps and all real sacred scriptures show the way to the same heaven.

The whole thing is that followers of one faith should not expend all their energy on condemning those of a different faith and trying to correct and educate them.

So …