'An Affair On Golgotha' -- a refutation

Personally, I think that the original articles should have been left intact and not defaced with "refutations".
If somebody wants to write new articles about Paul or the resurrection, that is great.

I'm just redressing the balance, and apparently upsetting "the boss" in the process ;)
 
I know, I get it, and I do understand. I have a tendency to upset the boss around here from time to time too.

I think the articles should remain, but I also think that refutation should be offered by those willing. I wrote my refutation to the one article long ago and was promised long ago to publish my reply, which until now didn't happen. That left many to say that Mr Garaffa's article was beyond refutation, when nothing could be further from the truth.

I respect Mr Garaffa, we had an enjoyable discussion, I only wish he had returned to it so we could continue.

When I started my history thread focused on Constantine, I went in with presumptions, but I knew they were presumptions and as the evidences presented themselves I was able to set aside my presumptions. I also had a great many insights that I don't believe I would have appreciated had I only read them in someone else's essay. I find that exploring a topic is a far more compelling method of learning, and the information tends to stay with a person in a more lasting manner. It tends to hit home. But this only works for people open to the exploration, those not yet ready will seal their minds, it is a self defense mechanism.
 
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... did Jesus teach people to "eat his body"? I think not... God wants people to eat and drink human bodies ..
This is a disgraceful level of debate @muhammad_isa

This cannibalism literalism is exactly the same evil used to torture Christians since the days of ancient Rome and still continuing in 21st Century shariah countries.

At least the Romans really believed that early Christians practiced cannabilism.

You, my friend, know better, yet are still willing to spread such vile rubbish. You are deliberately misunderstanding that Catholic communion is where Christ promises to be present in the Eucharist -- and anyway which is more derived from the Essenes than from Paul.
Personally, I think that the original articles should have been left intact and not defaced with "refutations".
And others think they should be attached neatly to the bottom of the original articles, without altering or defacing the originals in any way.
I'm just redressing the balance
In order to redress the IMbalance created in them by such deliberate misunderstandings and the sort of disgracefully ignorant accusations and assumptions as the ones above about the Eucharist.
apparently upsetting "the boss" in the process ;)
You have full admin keys exactly the same as mine and you know that. You can remove the attachment to the articles if you want to. But others support them.

Your own faith has been treated with absolute respect right throughout this thread, while at the same time you have been casting around at others with mocking slurs, deliberate misunderstandings and irresponsible half-truths.

So I'm not going to continue to respond to your comments in this thread, so please don't try to goad me further into doing so
 
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It is fine to destroy a Bible, but threaten to destroy a Qur'an and all hell breaks loose ... have yet to meet a Muslim willing to even consider a reciprocal study analyzing the roots of Islam - the suggestion alone is usually met with unseemly threats
Bingo!
Being obtuse and misrepresenting what I wrote only underscores my earlier comment.
Bingo
Personally I would like to try to calm the storm somewhat, but that does not mean surrender on my part, and I am not asking you to surrender either. This is not a zero sum game.
Bingo
 
I find that exploring a topic is a far more compelling method of learning, and the information tends to stay with a person in a more lasting manner. It tends to hit home. But this only works for people open to the exploration, those not yet ready will seal their minds, it is a self defense mechanism.

I agree with you..
People are often afraid of change, and might take it personally if their beliefs are challenged on a rational basis.
I don't speak on a personal level. If people find rational discourse disturbing, there is not a lot I can do about that.

Damned if you do, and damned if you don't..

Should I pretend that I agree with EVERYTHING that somebody else believes?
Should Victor Garaffa and I pretend that there is no evidence to show that traditional Christian beliefs are flawed,
in order not to offend people?

I am offended when people suggest that Muhammad is a paedophile/devil or liar.
..but I'm not offended by people who challenge my beliefs .. in fact it keeps me on my toes .. I like it !
 
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Should Victor Garaffa and I pretend that there is no evidence to show that traditional Christian beliefs are flawed,
in order not to offend people?
More half-truths my friend? Christians also study these things and realise it's not perfect. but when a 'scholar' person deliberately and literally misrepresents what is said, ignoring the facts that do not suit his conspiracy theory in order deliberately to mislead people who do not understand the complexity of the subject -- that is something else.

Shoot -- I took the bait ... again
 
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You are deliberately misunderstanding that Catholic communion is where Christ promises to be present in the Eucharist..

No .. I'm not. I'm a Unitarian. I have good reason to believe what Mr. Garaffa says .. that "the church" has ended up focusing on a creed which is erroneous.
This in turn leads to misbelief and concentrating on dogma rather than God and righteousness.

..I'm not going to continue to respond to your comments in this thread, so please don't try to goad me further into doing so

That is your prerogative. I have no interest in challenging your authority on this site. I have no ulterior motive for
expressing my views, other than as I say, to educate. If you think that my discourse is rubbish [ as you think Victor's is also ], then that is your opinion.
 
That is your prerogative. I have no interest in challenging your authority on this site. I
What's wrong with you? My 'authority' on this site? You don't want the attachments others do.
If you think that my discourse is rubbish [ as you think Victor's is also ], then that is your
They are one-sided. Why do you keep deliberately misunderstanding? They ignore alternative evidence and consistently run to unjustified conclusions. I'm not the only one who sees that

Actually I'm not even that much of a devout practising Christian. I just want to see fairness.

The articles present one side of the story, while the others are attached to present the other side of the story -- because like it or not there are two sides -- at least while waiting for the essays to come in -- or not.
 
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Err .. you don't want to know ;)
OK I take it back. However it was an emotional response to your making me out to be the little Napoleon around here.

I suggest you stop insisting that your own view is right, and yourself start listening to what others have to say, as you keep telling them to do.

Now I really am out of here, Muhammad ...
 
..so did Jesus teach people to "eat his body"? I think not.
Your opinion.

Which came first? Paul's visions or the written gospels?
Difficult question. We can say Luke and Matthew were later, but a prototypical Mark and John could have been contemporaneous.

Scholars of the Jesus Seminar generally regard the gospel accounts of the Last Supper as cult legend, that is, a story that accounts for some ritual practice in the Jesus movement.
The JS has been largely discredited.

... or maybe they just take all the dogma for granted and think that God wants people to eat and drink human bodies .. or Divine bodies, whatever that means.
Well as you clearly don't understand what that means, you're not really in a position to argue the point either way?
 
Should Victor Garaffa and I pretend that there is no evidence to show that traditional Christian beliefs are flawed, in order not to offend people?
With regard to 'The Pauline Conspiracy', it's a partisan and pejorative document rather than sound scholarship – it's a lot of opinion posing as 'fact', and is riddled with factual and interpretational errors.

If you want an equivalent, how about this:

+++

The Prophet Mohammed never actually existed in the way the received version of Islamic tradition claims.

Islam is a Gnostic spiritual teaching wrapped in myth. Islam has created a Prophet to be the hero of its mythology, the vehicle by whom spiritual truths, supposedly dictated by an angel, are made accessible to the peasantry.

There are hardly any original Islamic sources from the first century of Islam. Even with those from that period, caution is required. Even with a source from the first century, the question of later manipulation remains. There is no firm ground in the sources until the written text was established.

How can a world religion have erupted in a virtual vacuum? All great religions have their heresies, Where are the early Islamic heretics and gnostics? Later theologians knew some of their works, but the content is lost.

Documentary evidence from the Sufnayid period makes no mention of the messenger of God at all. The papyri do not refer to him. The Arabic inscriptions of the Arab-Sasanian coins only invoke Allah, not his messenger. Pre-Marwanid tombstones fail to mention the messenger.

A scandal of Islamic tradition is the absence of Islamic formulations from coins and monuments dating from the its first two centuries, as well as the presence of material obviously incompatible with Islam.

The oldest inscription with the formulation "Mohammed Messenger of Allah" is to found in the 66th year of Islamic reckoning, and after that used continuously. But there also exist coins found in Palestine on which the word "Muhammed" is on one side and a picture of a man holding a cross on the other. There are dozens of other examples. There is no evidence of conquest as presented in Islamic commentaries, but rather a peaceful transfer of power from the Byzantine empire to its local Arab allies.

Various explanations are put forward for the lack of mention of the Prophet in the early period, and it is no proof for the non-existence of an historical Mohammed. But it is most astonishing, and begs the question of the significance of Mohammed for the original Muslim congregation in the case that he did exist.

The question arises: if Mohammed never existed, or did not exist as he is portrayed, why was so much effort devoted in later years to manufacturing thousands of pages of phony documentation in the Hadith and elsewhere?

Why, indeed, was the Mohammed story invented, by whom, and to what end?

The story of the Hegira, Mohammed's flight from Mecca to Medina allegedly in 622, provides a clue. No prophet is mentioned in the Qur'an as often as Moses, and Muslim tradition always emphasised the similarly between Moses and Mohammed. The central event in the life of Moses is the Exodus of the oppressed Children of Israel out of Egypt, so the central event in the life of Mohammed is the Exodus of his oppressed congregation out of Mecca to Medina. The Hegira appears only to show how the Prophet emulates the life of Moses.

The connection of Mohammed to Jesus in Islamic tradition is through his daughter Fatima, who is identified with Mary. The line Fatima-Mary-Isis is well known to research. With the takeover of Mecca, Mohammed returns to the point of origin. Thus we have a circular structure typical of myth, in which beginning and end are identical. This Gnostic circular structure represents the concept that the soul returns to its origin. It is separated from its origin, and must return to it for the sake of its salvation.

Islam began as a Gnostic teaching. The myth of Mohammed could be the product of such a Gnosis, wanting to present its theology as a new and original myth with a new protagonist, but actually is the old protagonist (Moses/Jesus) reimagined. For the Gnostic it was always clear, the issue is not historicity, but theology. Moses, Jesus and Mohammed are different versions of a mythical hero or son of god, who would depict an old spiritual teaching in mythical form.

In Islamic Gnosis, Mohammed appears along with family members; Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Hussein are cosmic forces, the Gnostic Abu Mansur al Igli claimed that God first created Jesus, and then Ali. Here apparently we still have the Cosmic Christ. If a Christian Gnosis was there as the origin of Islam, then the Cosmic Christ underwent a name change to Mohammed in the Arab world, and this Cosmic Mohammed was presented as a new edition of the Myth of Moses/Jesus as an Arab prophet.

The teachings of Islamic mysticism are not specifically Islamic. They are a new minting of the perennial philosophy, which is found everywhere in the world in various traditions. The Qur'an is then a vehicle of transmission of the perennial philosophy.

With that in mind, it's worth noting that Arabic script transcribed 28 consonants, of which only 6 can be readily distinguished, the remaining 22 having formal similarities which means that what specific consonant is intended can only be determined by context. It was only with the introduction of diacritics centuries later, that an authorized vocalization of the text, how it was to be read, was established.

Prior to this, there is evidence that the unpointed text could be read in different ways, with different meanings. A precise reading the text was not fixed in the days of the Prophet.

There is a tradition in Islam that two men, disputing a verse in the text, asked a third to mediate, but he disagreed with both of them, coming up with a third reading. To resolve the question, the three went to Muhammad. He asked all three to read out the verse in turn, each as they understood it, then pronounced all three correct! Perplexed, they asked for an explanation, and the Prophet told them: "Pray to God for protection from the accursed Satan" which is, unfortunately, no answer at all, but rather suggests that God is not quite able to make Himself clearly and unequivocally understood – let alone the idea that God dictates through an angel – It does serve, however, as a means of silencing question.

+++

I don't hold with it at all, but it is the work of a Muslim and Professor of Islamic Theology.
 
I said:
Should Victor Garaffa and I pretend that there is no evidence to show that traditional Christian beliefs are flawed, in order not to offend people?

Thomas said:
..it's a lot of opinion posing as 'fact', and is riddled with factual and interpretational errors.

Yes .. we know that. Nevertheless, there are many valid points in it which you choose to ignore,
that are backed up by refs.

Thomas said:
...
"Islam has created a Prophet to be the hero of its mythology, the vehicle by whom spiritual truths, supposedly dictated by an angel, are made accessible to the peasantry."
...
..it is the work of a Muslim and Professor of Islamic Theology.

You saying he is a Muslim does not make it so.
Are you implying that Unitarians are not Christians?
I've heard this pathetic argument before. Same with the JW's.

It all started with the Nicene creed and the political persecution of those opposed.
As I say, once Constantine took off his "Emperor's hat", he repented.
 
It all started with the Nicene creed and the political persecution of those opposed.

The Quran corrected the mistakes being made by Christains with the Trinity.

Then over time, unfortunately, Islam then wound back what Muhammad offered about Jesus Christ in a just as a decisive doctrine.

When we balance the Quran with the Bible, with what Baha'u'llah offered, we can see that Christ, which is the station of the Holy Spirit, was not killed. We are not talking about the flesh body of Jesus.

We must balance Faith with our knowledge of science.

They are great topics, but If argued about, well I see there is no winner and all would be wrong, as God is One, God is our Unity.

Regards Tony
 
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Christ, which is the station of the Holy Spirit, was not killed. We are not talking about the flesh body of Jesus.
Yes. But which also was transformed. The bhodisattva mystery ... but again, not just another any one, but the great singular transformative divine demonstration from source?
 
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Yes. But which also was transformed. The bhodisattva mystery ... but again, not just another any one, but the great singular transformative divine demonstration from source?

How are we to know what a Spiritual Body is and capable of, God alone controls the laws of nature and does so within those given laws. Science has still got a lot to discover.

All we know is that Jesus made it very clear that the flesh amounts to nothing and it is the Spirit that is life and gives life. To build a doctrine based on making the flesh important, to me was wrong and I see Muhammad corrected that misunderstanding.

I can now take the bread of knowledge of Christ and the wine of devotion to Christ. And the fire of the Love of Christ, without thinking in the flesh, but see it as unity with a body of beleivers.

It's is a big topic, as for a Christian based in Doctrine has new frames of references to consider.

But rest assured, we can be One in Christ, if our heart only wants to know Christ, not for fear of punishment, nor want of reward, but out of Love for all humanity.

Regards Tony
 
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I agree with you..
People are often afraid of change, and might take it personally if their beliefs are challenged on a rational basis.
I don't speak on a personal level. If people find rational discourse disturbing, there is not a lot I can do about that.

Damned if you do, and damned if you don't..

Should I pretend that I agree with EVERYTHING that somebody else believes?
Should Victor Garaffa and I pretend that there is no evidence to show that traditional Christian beliefs are flawed,
in order not to offend people?

I am offended when people suggest that Muhammad is a paedophile/devil or liar.
..but I'm not offended by people who challenge my beliefs .. in fact it keeps me on my toes .. I like it !
OK, I'm willing if you are, but I think it is past time to do a parallel study of the roots of Islam as well, using the same "scientific" manner. I think in order to not be in the face of the religious aspects of either faith, we should carry the discussion to the history board.

My Rome in Transition thread is already there, I've already started a deep dive into my faith. I will allow you to start a deep dive thread into your faith and I will follow along and add if I see anything suitable. Fair enough?

I'm going to hold you to your word here. ;)
 
..My Rome in Transition thread is already there, I've already started a deep dive into my faith. I will allow you to start a deep dive thread into your faith and I will follow along and add if I see anything suitable. Fair enough?

I'm going to hold you to your word here. ;)

You may start the ball rolling. You can tell us why Muhammad, peace be with him, was a liar or deluded :)
 
You may start the ball rolling. You can tell us why Muhammad, peace be with him, was a liar or deluded :)
And why would I do that? Without supporting evidence, that would not be scholarly. And that is why I asked you to start the ball rolling. Unless you "are often afraid of change, and might take it personally if (you)r beliefs are challenged on a rational basis(?)" I think it would be more appropriate for one familiar with the faith to begin the look into the historical roots...on the history board, so there isn't any in the face challenge directly to your faith.

What is good for the goose, is good for the gander. You want to analyze Christianity, why the hesitancy to analyze Islam? Did you not say "We should all have an open mind. We should listen to other people's opinions and discuss them(?)"

Did you not say "I'm not offended by people who challenge my beliefs .. in fact it keeps me on my toes .. I like it !(?)" If this is as you say, then please begin the thread on the history board and together you and I will explore the history underpinning the faith of Islam. I am offering to you this very thing you requested; an honest, sincere, scholarly challenge and as long as the discussion remains polite that is my intention.

Unless your statements have all been one sided or duplicitous, and you are afraid to take a closer look?
 
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build a doctrine based on making the flesh important, to me was wrong
Would you like to expand? The stone was rolled away and the physical body of Jesus was absent from the tomb, leaving the burial cloth neatly folded. The natural was transformed into the spiritual.

Jesus was without sin, according to the scriptures. And the transormation was already witnessed earlier during the transfiguration. Matthew 17

Spirit weaves nature. A spiritual being can take on the natural form. Angels have done so. Christ is greater than the angels?
 
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