The Trinity: Genesis of a doctrine

[A Freeman]

Youre wrong.. Im done with this conversation as your anti-Jew and heretical arguments are just gross.

So it's now "anti-Jew" and "just gross" to point out that the Jews conspired against Jesus to have Jesus murdered by the Roman government?

 

[Faithfulservant]

So it's now "anti-Jew" and "just gross" to point out that the Jews conspired against Jesus to have Jesus murdered by the Roman government?

Yes. You are ignorant. The Law was given to them by God and with you saying it was arrogance that would cause them to break a commandment knowingly shows it.

John 8:48 The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’[a] 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

Exodus 3:14
14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

That was blasphemy to them and not arrogance that required stoning.


​

 

[A Freeman]

Excerpt below from: The Meaning Of I Am In John 8:58 -

Some Trinitarians claim that Christ was declaring Himself to be God in John 8:58 because a large number of Bibles have the words of Jesus translated as, “Before Abraham was, I am.” This erroneous claim is based on the words “I am” being a reference to Exodus 3:14 “And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shall you say unto the children of Israel, I AM has sent me unto you.” From this they attempt to draw the conclusion that Christ must be alluding to the divine name and thereby telling the Jews that He was God.

There is in fact nothing in John 8:58 that states Jesus was claiming to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. This idea has been wrongly assumed, added to, and read into in what Jesus stated.

Some further try and support their claim by saying this is why the next verse says they picked up stones to kill Him. But the reason the Jews did that was not because they saw Jesus declaring Himself to be God, but because He declared Himself to be greater than their father Abraham.

-------

Christ, the immortal spiritual-Being/Son of God that incarnated Jesus, the mortal son of Mary, 2000 years ago has been here before, and met Abraham in a previous incarnation as Melchizedek.

Genesis 14:18-20
14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem (Peace) brought forth bread and wine: and he [was] the priest of the Most High God.
14:19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed [be] Abram by the Most High God, possessor of heaven and earth:
14:20 And blessed be the Most High God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

John 8:54-58 KJV
8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of Whom ye say, that He is your God:
8:55 Yet ye have not known Him; but I know Him: and if I should say, I know Him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know Him, and keep His saying.
8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad (Gen. 14:18-20).
8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet FIFTY years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am (ch. 17:5).

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Thou me with Thine Own self with the glory which I had with Thee BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

Hebrews 5:5-11
5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made The High Priest; but He that said unto him, Thou art My Son, to day have I begotten (created) thee.
5:6 As He saith also in another [place], Thou [art] a Priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
5:9 And being MADE perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
5:10 Called by God an High Priest after the order of Melchizedek.
5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

Hebrews 6:20; 7:1-4
6:20 Where the forerunner is for us entered, [even] Jesus, made The High Priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
7:1 For this Melchizedek, King of Salem (Peace), priest of The Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of Righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
7:4 Now consider how great this man [was], unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

 

[TheLightWithin]

The man-made "trinity" doctrine wrongly teaches people that God is divided into 3 separate individuals that are allegedly equal and are somehow a 3=1 god. Of course this doctrine finds NO Scriptural support, and was openly refuted by Christ hundreds of times as well as by Paul.

I'm not so all fired sure the trinity is factually accurate either. But like many doctrinal points the writings are ambiguous and subject to interpretation, hence the controversy.

I think it's fine to be critical and even stern about dogmas you think are unproven or wrong, but I wonder as to the value of being bombastic about it. Confrontational and it's "my way or the highway" That's the same spirit that, when held onto soooo dearly by the church "authorities" of old, led to accusations and persecutions for so called "heresies" which always has me just shaking my head with the shame of it all.

They hadn't embraced the idea of religious freedom in those days, if they even heard of it. No no no, it had to be THEIR WAY OR DEATH TO THOSE WHO DISAGREE. Terrible shame, terrible.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven IS perfect.
Christ repeatedly and consistently defined God as Father; specifically as His Father and His God (John 20:17; Rev. 3:12). Christ NEVER defined God as a "trinity", nor did Christ pray to a "trinity" (only to His Father), nor did Christ ever claim to be anything other than the created Son of God.

That's right, it is never outright stated.

 

[TheLightWithin]

If that were true, then you should be able to show us definitively where Christ-Jesus prayed to the "trinity" or claimed to be equal to God or told us that God was 3 in 1, etc.

I'm sure he can make his case for it, but nobody is going to be able to make the "definitive" case that solves it for all time.
But you are correct insofar as stating there is no outright cathechism spelling out the trinity in the bible itself.
Catechisms that try to teach it appear far later.
If the trinity is the correct conception of God, I do not know the reason why it was not more thoroughly and unambiguously spelled out in the biblical text from the start.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Some Trinitarians claim that Christ was declaring Himself to be God in John 8:58 because a large number of Bibles have the words of Jesus translated as, “Before Abraham was, I am.” This erroneous claim is based on the words “I am” being a reference to Exodus 3:14 “And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shall you say unto the children of Israel, I AM has sent me unto you.” From this they attempt to draw the conclusion that Christ must be alluding to the divine name and thereby telling the Jews that He was God.

When I read it I thought he was simply quoting scripture of old. Not naming himself.

 

[TheLightWithin]

So it's now "anti-Jew" and "just gross" to point out that the Jews conspired against Jesus to have Jesus murdered by the Roman government?

Mr Freeman, you have said a number of things elsewhere in the forum from the minute you started which are clearly anti Jewish
I don't see how you can deny it.

 

[TheLightWithin]

So, contentious newcomers aside, one of the things I find the hardest to wrap my head around about the trinity concept is that so many efforts to make sense of it are dismissed as so called "heresies" -- Modalism, Subordinationism, you name it. I cannot wrap my head around what is supposedly wrong with the so-called "heresies" and why the church couldn't be more flexible or non-creedal on the matter as some later denominations became non-creedal. Or why, if these points were important, and truly sourced from God, why God could not have made more blatant and less ambiguous declarations available, to put to rest all debate about whether or not a trinity exists and accurately describes God, or whether or not it is crucial to know, think, or believe.

 

[A Freeman]

I'm not so all fired sure the trinity is factually accurate either. But like many doctrinal points the writings are ambiguous and subject to interpretation, hence the controversy.

I think it's fine to be critical and even stern about dogmas you think are unproven or wrong, but I wonder as to the value of being bombastic about it. Confrontational and it's "my way or the highway" That's the same spirit that, when held onto soooo dearly by the church "authorities" of old, led to accusations and persecutions for so called "heresies" which always has me just shaking my head with the shame of it all.

They hadn't embraced the idea of religious freedom in those days, if they even heard of it. No no no, it had to be THEIR WAY OR DEATH TO THOSE WHO DISAGREE. Terrible shame, terrible.

The Scripture isn't ambiguous at all, except to those who are adamant that its terminology be redefined to meet certain religious superstitions and traditions, instead of accepting its simple meaning.

And no "dogma" has ever been personally shared on this forum or on any other. Those are endemic in organized religions, which blind people to the truth. The completely fabricated "trinity" doctrine is a great example of dogma, as it cannot withstand even minimal scrutiny upon examination. Three can NEVER be equal to One, unless it is intended to describe one group of three individuals. Is God a group? No. God is ONE. And the ONLY Way to be at one with God is to get to know Him and learn to do His Will here on Earth, as it is done by the collective group of angels (gods/spiritual-Beings) in heaven.

You personally were "angered" according to your emoticon over a simple question about a factual (true) historic event that no one should dispute nor be offended by. Namely this:

So it's now "anti-Jew" and "just gross" to point out that the Jews conspired against Jesus to have Jesus murdered by the Roman government?

Please take emotion out of the equation, as emotion robs people of their common-sense and God-given reason.

Peace be upon you.

 

[A Freeman]

Mr Freeman, you have said a number of things elsewhere in the forum from the minute you started which are clearly anti Jewish
I don't see how you can deny it.

You are confusing someone sharing the truth: that the true Israelite people are descended from the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel, with being "anti-Jewish", probably because of the propaganda you've been fed and chosen to believe.

As someone who actually loves people of every race, religion and creed, including those who have chosen to believe in the traditions and doctrines of the organized religion that calls itself "Judaism", does it not make perfect sense to share the truth with them and with everyone else, for everyone's benefit?

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

The truth is very, very simple: we have all been given 6000 years to REPENT, i.e. to STOP sinning/breaking The Law that God gave us, and to remember and return to keeping His Law. God gave us His Perfect Law of Liberty to protect us from evil and to set and keep us FREE. Free from all of the lies; free from all of the satanic dogmas/traditions/doctrines of men that plague ALL organized religion; and free from being ruled over by Lucifer/Satan/Iblis through the "self".

It's understood that most are still offended by the truth, because they have become so accustomed to believing in lies, particularly those taught by organized religions, that they have no idea anymore what the truth is, or how to differentiate it from the lies. Why would anyone wish to leave so many wandering in a state of confusion?

Talmudic Judaism is NOT The Way.

"Christianity" is NOT The Way.

"Islam" is NOT The Way.

NO organized religion, including all of the Eastern/Dharmic religions are The Way. God and His Christ have promised to destroy ALL organized religion, which has historically and very obviously divided us against one another, so that we can UNITE under God and His Perfect Law of Liberty, and help transform this planet from the hell that it has been to the heaven on Earth it was always meant to be, where everyone loves one another and can trust each other implicitly to do what is best for the greater good.

Christ -- and the Life Example He has provided for us -- IS The Way. We can either learn to actually follow Christ's True Teachings which are centered on crucifying the "self" DAILY so that we can instead be led by God's Holy Spirit to DO His Will, or we will find ourselves spending eternity in The Lake of Fire. That is the do or die, God's Way or the Highway to Hell choice that each of us face, whether we realize and acknowledge that FACT or not. It's either The Way home or face The Fire (Rev. 10:6-10; Rev. 2:17).

That is why the replies that are personally posted contain numerous Scriptural references, so that those who are genuinely interested in the truth can see for themselves that none of what has been shared is my personal opinion; it is straight out of Scripture. It's difficult to see how anything could be more loving than that, particularly given that God IS Love.

 

[TheLightWithin]

So it's now "anti-Jew" and "just gross" to point out that the Jews conspired against Jesus to have Jesus murdered by the Roman government?

what do you mean by this (you are also quoting someone else)

Please take emotion out of the equation,

no

emotion robs people of their common-sense and God-given reason.

what do you mean by this. in reality

 

[TheLightWithin]

chosen to believe.

beliefs are not choices, where do people get this idea, what do you mean by this

Additionally, I don't know if you know this or not, but evangelizing is not done on this forum

 

[TheLightWithin]

including those who have chosen to believe in the traditions and doctrines

belief it not a choice

does it not make perfect sense to share the truth with them

no

for everyone's benefit?

beneficial to nobody

so accustomed to believing in lies

stated about every religion even within religions and interdenominational rivalry

The truth is very, very simple:

it rarely is

so many wandering in a state of confusion?

what do you mean by that

spending eternity in The Lake of Fire. That is the do or die, God's Way or the Highway to Hell choice that each of us face

how dare you

acknowledge that FACT or not.

religious beliefs are not facts

The Way home or face The Fire (Rev. 10:6-10; Rev. 2:17).

how dare you

Peace be upon you.

This phrase is often used for people who are deceased. What do you mean by saying this.

 

[A Freeman]

Hebrews 12:13-14
12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of The Way; but let it rather be healed.
12:14 Follow peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is NOT [the author] of CONFUSION, but of peace, as in all communities of the holy people.

3 does NOT equal 1. Claiming otherwise is total confusion. And where there is confusion there can never be peace.

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The First of all the Commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is ONE Lord [not a "trinity"]:

Numbers 6:22-24
6:24 The "I AM" bless thee, and keep thee:
6:25 The "I AM" make His face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
6:26 The "I AM" lift up His countenance upon thee, and give thee PEACE.

 

[A Freeman]

“Our opponents sometimes claim that no belief should be held dogmatically which
is not explicitly stated in scripture ... But the Protestant Churches have
themselves accepted such dogmas, AS THE TRINITY, for which there is no such
precise authority in the Gospels,” — (Assumption of Mary, Life magazine, Oct 30,
1950, p. 51)

Source: The Trinity Doctrine Exposed

From the Athanasian Creed: "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is
necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep
whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the
catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity...

...This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he
cannot be saved."

"The doctrine of the Trinity is the central Catholic Dogma, that Catholics are
obliged to believe.

“He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.”
-the Athanasian Creed"

See: Athanasian Creed - Wikipedia

 

[A Freeman]

God, through His prophet Isaiah, ~3000 years ago warning us that most people prefer to believe in lies, because the lies are easier to believe than accepting the truth and the personal responsibility that comes with knowing and accepting the truth:

Isaiah 30:8-15
30:8 Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a Book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:
30:9 That this [is] a rebellious people, lying children, children [that] will not hear The Law of the "I AM":
30:10 Which say to the Seers, See not; and to the Prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits (lies):
30:11 Get you out of The Way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.
30:12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this Word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
30:13 Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.
30:14 And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; He shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a piece to take fire from the hearth, or to take water [withal] out of the pit.
30:15 For thus saith the Lord "I AM", the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

And ~2000 we were again warned about the consequences of choosing to believe in lies like the trinity delusion:

2 Thessalonians 2:3-12
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of The Destroyer (Lucifer - Satan);
2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in The Temple of God, showing himself that he is God (the Holy Father).
2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2:7 For the mystery (Rev. 17:5) of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the [Sword of the] Spirit from his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness [of the enlightening] of his coming:
2:9 [Even the Wicked], whose coming is the work of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of The Truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not The Truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Thomas]

That's right, it is never outright stated.

Just to point out here that the idea that for a doctrine to be true it must be explicitly stated in Scripture, is relatively recent – in its contemporary understanding it dates from the assertion of Biblical Inerrancy that emerged in America in the 19th century.

Thus that doctrine, is modern, and a man-made invention, whereas from ages past it was understood that sacra doctrina need to be interpreted – so there is an argument that the insistence that the meaning of Scripture is self-evident and explicitly clear is, in itself both a false premise and one that is refuted by Scripture itself, eg "Why do you speak to them in parables?” And in reply he said, “Because it has been granted to you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of the heavens, but it has not been granted to them." (Matthew 13:11)

This underpins the entire Scripture discourse – the sacred scribes tell the parables, but do not explain them. Furthermore, it's clear that Christ spoke in such fashion so that even his own disciples were not aware of the totality of his meaning (eg John 20:8 "So the other disciple, the one having come first to the tomb, also entered, and he saw and had faith; for as yet they did not know the scripture: that it is necessary for him to rise again from the dead.")

That 'the word Trinity is not found in Scripture' is a weak argument, becoming increasingly untenable when so many references appear to imply three distinct 'persons' when discussing the Divine Nature.

 

[Thomas]

But you are correct insofar as stating there is no outright cathechism spelling out the trinity in the bible itself.
Catechisms that try to teach it appear far later.

Well, the oldest extant cataechism, the Didache (c60-95AD) contains the triune formulae 'Father, Son and Holy Spirit' and triple immersion. The point I would argue here is that three persons or entities are explicitly stated, and to put the two in the same breath as 'The Father' who is indisputably God, and that to be effective the baptism has to be threefold, strongly suggests a unity in divinity.

Justin Martyr (100-165) speaks of the Three Persons, as does St Irenaeus in his Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching, written around 180AD says:
"This then is the order of the rule of our faith, and the foundation of the building, and the stability of our conversation: God, the Father, not made, not material, invisible; one God, the creator of all things: this is the first point of our faith. The second point is: The Word of God, Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord, who was manifested to the prophets according to the form of their prophesying and according to the method of the dispensation of the Father: through whom all things were made; who also at the end of the times, to complete and gather up all things, was made man among men, visible and tangible, in order to abolish death and show forth life and produce a community of union between God and man. And the third point is: The Holy Spirit, through whom the prophets prophesied, and the fathers learned the things of God, and the righteous were led forth into the way of righteousness; and who in the end of the times was poured out in a new way a upon mankind in all the earth, renewing man unto God."
Which is clearly a trinity, without saying 'the Trinity'. Furthermore ...
"And for this reason the baptism of our regeneration proceeds through these three points: God the Father bestowing on us regeneration
through His Son by the Holy Spirit. For as many as carry (in them) the Spirit of God are led to the Word, that is to the Son; and the Son brings
them to the Father; and the Father causes them to possess incorruption. Without the Spirit it is not possible to behold the Word of God, nor
without the Son can any draw near to the Father for the knowledge of the Father is the Son, and the knowledge of the Son of God is through the Holy Spirit ... "
This latter echoes directly the words of St Paul (cf Romans 8:15 and Galatians 4:6).

So I would say that the Didache and the Demonstration – both early catechisms – clearly and explicitly state a triune which we might call the Trinity.

The Doctrine declared in later centuries, expands on, clarifies and even corrects certain points to avoid confusion, the primary one being subordination, a belief that sets up a hierarchy of superiority which inevitably would lead to the idea of a God and Demigods, and while implied by the words "the Father is greater than I" (John 14:28), one also has to account for this statement: "All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine" (John 16:15).

 

[Thomas]

When I read it I thought he was simply quoting scripture of old. Not naming himself.

First, the linguistics. Kenneth L. McKay's A New Syntax of the Verb in New Testament Greek (Peter Lang, 1994) says that εἰμι in 8:58 is "a form of the continuation realization of the imperfective aspect" and renders the verse as "I have been in existence before Abraham was born" (p. 42).

The majority of scholars understand ἐγώ εἰμι in the verse not merely in terms of tense/aspect but in light of the use of this expression contextually in John and in the Hebrew Scriptures, as the equivalent of Hebrew אני הוא, a solemn divine pronouncement, as in Deuteronomy 32:39 "See ye that I alone am, and there is no other God besides me" and Isaiah 41:4 "I the Lord, I am the first and the last", 43:10 "You are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that you may know, and believe me, and understand that I myself am. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there shall be none" (also Isaiah 43:13, 25, 44:6, 46:4, 48:12).

This interpretation also accounts for the absolute use of ἐγώ εἰμι in John 8:23-25 "You are from beneath, I am from above. You are of this world, I am not of this world. Therefore I said to you, that you shall die in your sins. For if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sin. They said therefore to him: Who art thou? Jesus said to them: The beginning, who also speak unto you."
The rest of the chapter amplifies this point, and it was as a result of this discourse that they sought to stone Him for blasphemy.

"In the poetry of Isaiah, the patriarch is presented as one who has already experienced God's power to deliver (51:2; cf. 41:8), and this offers assurance to the exiles of their own future deliverance... Once again, to recognize הוא in its role as a distinctive designation for God would clearly be dependent on the setting of its usage. If Jesus, according to John 8:58, was accused of blasphemy for usurping the divine הוא , it would have to be clear from the context of his pronouncement that this was its intended function... Jesus has, moreover, been making pronouncements throughout the discourse that would be viewed as claims to divine authority by his opponents, and to speak of himself in relation to the patriarch Abraham with the words πριν 'Αβραάμ γενέσθαι could quite plausibly have prompted his Jewish audience to interpret אני הוא as his claim to a divine name" (pp. 277-282).
(excerpt from Catrin H. Williams' I Am He: The Interpretation of 'Anî Hû in Jewish and Early Christian Literature, Mohr Siebeck, 2000, p277-282).