Did Most Early Christians Believe The Divinity of Christ?

[Thomas]

At this point you and I are pretty well stuck in our grooves. I don't expect you to change, and I'm not about to change.
I bet you're a pretty decent person in real life, and I'd buy you a beer anytime.
It's not about what you believe, it is about what you do with what you believe.

Likewise ...

 

[juantoo3]

Where...oh where...does any of this point to G!d telling puny little humans to change what HE sanctified?

How few of the quotes above are even Canonical...you have to admit you are reaching and grasping at straws.

There was no Divine order to change the Sabbath. It was men who changed it.

I still love you like a brother.

 

[juantoo3]

OK ... But there is ample evidence in support of the Lord's Day observance:

“But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned” (Didache 14 70AD).

Saturday Sabbath is the Lord's Day

“We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead” (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 74AD).

Jesus did rise on the first day of the week, that did not change the Sabbath

“[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death” (Letter to the Magnesians 8 110 AD).

Never heard of this, it clearly isn't canonical.

“But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead” (First Apology 67 155AD).

Not canonical

“The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the holy scriptures, and the oblation [sacrifice of the Mass], because on the first day of the week [ie. Sunday] our Lord rose from the place of the dead, and on the first day of the week he arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week he ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week he will appear at last with the angels of heaven” (Didascalia 2 225AD).

Not canonical

“Hence it is not possible that the [day of] rest after the Sabbath should have come into existence from the seventh [day] of our God. On the contrary, it is our Saviour who, after the pattern of his own rest, caused us to be made in the likeness of his death, and hence also of his resurrection” (Origen Commentary on John 2:28 229AD).

Not canonical. And I thought Origen was one of those guys you personally have a love/hate relationship with...

“The sixth day [Friday] is called parasceve, that is to say, the preparation of the kingdom. . . . On this day also, on account of the passion of the Lord Jesus Christ, we make either a station to God or a fast. On the seventh day he rested from all his works, and blessed it, and sanctified it. On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously, that on the Lord’s day we may go forth to our bread with giving of thanks. And let the parasceve become a rigorous fast, lest we should appear to observe any Sabbath with the Jews . . . which Sabbath he [Christ] in his body abolished” (Victorinus The Creation of the World 300AD).

Not canonical and brimming with anti-Semitism

"They [the early saints of the Old Testament] did not care about circumcision of the body, neither do we [Christians]. They did not care about observing Sabbaths, nor do we. They did not avoid certain kinds of food, neither did they regard the other distinctions which Moses first delivered to their posterity to be observed as symbols; nor do Christians of the present day do such things” (Eusebius of Caesarea Church History 1:4:8 312AD).

Eusebius is another I think you have a love/hate relationship with, of the Arian persuasion as I recall, and councilor to Constantine. In this instance Eusebius is mistaken as I already pointed to in scripture. Who trumps whom, a commentator or the Scripture? I know which I place above the other...

For someone who speaks so vehemently against Arius and his teachings, it seems referring to his followers when convenient is a time tested tactic.

“[T]he day of his [Christ’s] light . . . was the day of his resurrection from the dead, which they say, as being the one and only truly holy day and the Lord’s day, is better than any number of days as we ordinarily understand them, and better than the days set apart by the Mosaic law for feasts, new moons, and Sabbaths, which the apostle [Paul] teaches are the shadow of days and not days in reality” (Eusebius of Caesarea Proof of the Gospel 4:16:186 319AD).

Once again Eusebius, and all he does here is validate what I'm saying about MEN changing the Sabbath, not G!d.

-Since you were gracious enough to do this chronologically, insert Constantine's civil edict changing the day of worship to that of "the Venerable Day of the Sun" here at 321AD-

The First Council of Nicea was 4 years later, 325AD

“The Sabbath was the end of the first creation, the Lord’s day was the beginning of the second, in which he renewed and restored the old in the same way as he prescribed that they should formerly observe the Sabbath as a memorial of the end of the first things, so we honour the Lord’s day as being the memorial of the new creation” (Athanasius On Sabbath and Circumcision 3 345AD).

Now we're post Nicea, post Constantine's edict, and Athanasius has his own credibility issues we've discussed before

I agree with you in that later texts show a continuation of (or perhaps a reprise of) Sabbath observance – and definitely I can see in these text a somewhat polemical edge!

“Fall not away either into the sect of the Samaritans or into Judaism, for Jesus Christ has henceforth ransomed you. Stand aloof from all observance of Sabbaths and from calling any indifferent meats common or unclean” (Cyril of Jerusalem Catechetical Lectures 4:37 350AD).

Post Nicea and anti-Semetic

“Christians should not Judaize and should not be idle on the Sabbath, but should work on that day; they should, however, particularly reverence the Lord’s day and, if possible, not work on it, because they were Christians” (Council of Laodicea Canon 29 360AD).

Post Nicea and anti-Semetic

“[W]hen he [God] said, ‘You shall not kill’ . . . he did not add, ‘because murder is a wicked thing.’ The reason was that conscience had taught this beforehand, and he speaks thus, as to those who know and understand the point. Wherefore when he speaks to us of another commandment, not known to us by the dictate of conscience, he not only prohibits, but adds the reason. When, for instance, he gave commandment concerning the Sabbath— ‘On the seventh day you shall do no work’—he subjoined also the reason for this cessation. What was this? ‘Because on the seventh day God rested from all his works which he had begun to make’ [Ex. 20:10-11]. . . . For what purpose then, I ask, did he add a reason respecting the Sabbath, but did no such thing in regard to murder? Because this commandment was not one of the leading ones. It was not one of those which were accurately defined of our conscience, but a kind of partial and temporary one, and for this reason it was abolished afterward. But those which are necessary and uphold our life are the following: ‘You shall not kill. . . . You shall not commit adultery. . . . You shall not steal.’ On this account he adds no reason in this case, nor enters into any instruction on the matter, but is content with the bare prohibition” (John Chrysostom Homilies on the Statutes 12:9 387AD).

Wow...how can this possibly be interpreted as anything but political justification and propaganda?

“You have put on Christ, you have become a member of the Lord and been enrolled in the heavenly city, and you still grovel in the law [of Moses]? How is it possible for you to obtain the kingdom? Listen to Paul’s words, that the observance of the law overthrows the gospel, and learn, if you will, how this comes to pass, and tremble, and shun this pitfall. Why do you keep the Sabbath and fast with the Jews?” (John Chrysostom Homilies on Galatians 2:17 395AD).

No bias there... <rolleyes>

“The rite of circumcision was venerable in the Jews’ account, forasmuch as the law itself gave way thereto, and the Sabbath was less esteemed than circumcision. For that circumcision might be performed, the Sabbath was broken; but that the Sabbath might be kept, circumcision was never broken; and mark, I pray, the dispensation of God. This is found to be even more solemn than the Sabbath, as not being omitted at certain times. When then it is done away, much more is the Sabbath” (John Chrysostom Homilies on Philippians 10 402AD).

By whom? Certainly not the Jews. Jesus was a Jew.

“Well, now, I should like to be told what there is in these ten commandments, except the observance of the Sabbath, which ought not to be kept by a Christian” (Augustine The Spirit and the Letter 24 412AD).

Seriously? Keep G!d's Commandments except the ones I (a puny little human) disagree with? Do we dare consider the change of the Commandment regarding idols while we are at it here?

“It has come to my ears that certain men of perverse spirit have sown among you some things that are wrong and opposed to the holy faith, so as to forbid any work being done on the Sabbath day. What else can I call these [men] but preachers of Antichrist, who when he comes will cause the Sabbath day as well as the Lord’s day to be kept free from all work. For because he [the Antichrist] pretends to die and rise again, he wishes the Lord’s day to be held in reverence; and because he compels the people to Judaize that he may bring back the outward rite of the law, and subject the perfidy of the Jews to himself, he wishes the Sabbath to be observed. For this which is said by the prophet, ‘You shall bring in no burden through your gates on the Sabbath day’ [Jer. 17:24] could be held to as long as it was lawful for the law to be observed according to the letter. But after that the grace of almighty God, our Lord Jesus Christ, has appeared, the commandments of the law which were spoken figuratively cannot be kept according to the letter. For if anyone says that this about the Sabbath is to be kept, he must needs say that carnal sacrifices are to be offered. He must say too that the commandment about the circumcision of the body is still to be retained. But let him hear the apostle Paul saying in opposition to him: ‘If you be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing’ [Gal. 5:2]” (Pope Gregory I Letters 13:1 597AD).

I'm the Pope, don't listen to G!d's Commands...I give the orders around here.

??? WTF?

If the Ten Commandments are haphazardly diluted, then they are not COMMANDMENTS, they become "suggestions."

One can argue all day long regarding the 613 Levitical Laws, the Gentiles are not subject to the Levitical Laws. The Ten Commandments on the other hand, are merely formal spelling out of the Noahide Laws...which are the very "Laws written on their hearts" per Romans 2. It isn't to men to change this, G!d ordained the Sabbath at the Creation, reinforced it (and brought it back into remembrance after generations of bondage in Egypt) with the Manna in the Wilderness. Then G!d spelled it out succinctly on the Tablets with His own finger!

But you are attempting to tell me men have the right and duty to supersede G!d, in any and all matters. If it is OK to do this for one matter, it is OK to do so for others.

I don't practice my faith in that manner. No man directs my faithwalk, I get my marching orders from the book of G!d's Word.

Since it is not possible to show me in the Word of G!d where G!d ordered the changing of the Sabbath, in my heart I will retain the Sabbath G!d so ordered, because that is scriptural.

 

[Thomas]

OK ... how about –

"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath." (Mark 2:27-28)
(The reference to Exodus is explicit – "The Sabbath is given over to you and not you to the Sabbath." Exodus 31:13).

"But I tell you that there is here a greater than the temple ... For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath." (Matthew 12:6, 8, cf Luke 6:5))

"But now he hath obtained a better ministry, by how much also he is a mediator of a better testament, which is established on better promises. For if that former had been faultless, there should not indeed a place have been sought for a second." (Hebrews 8:6-7)

"Having therefore, brethren, a confidence in the entering into the holies by the blood of Christ; A new and living way which he hath dedicated for us through the veil, that is to say, his flesh..." (Hebrews 10:19)

Did Jesus abrogate the Sabbath? No, He is the Lord of the Sabbath, so if one observe's the Lord's Day, one is thereby observing the Sabbath in the spirit of its meaning, rather than the letter of which day of the week.

CCC:
2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:
"Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death." (Ignatius of Antioch)
2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all." Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people."

 

[juantoo3]

 

[muhammad_isa]

Monday Monday, so good to me,
Monday Monday, it was all I hoped it would be
Oh Monday morning, Monday morning couldn't guarantee
That Monday evening you would still be here with me.

 

[juantoo3]

There is an element of quality vs quantity to our debate.

No matter how often I put what G!d said, there is rebuttal from this man or that man.

I know which side I give credence, and I also understand that no matter how often I invoke the Creator of all, there will be "but this man said and that man said." Eventually the discussion isn't worth continuing.

You have your justifications. I have mine. I place a greater value on the Commands of G!d over the words of men, you place a greater value on the words of men over the Commands of G!d.

Your choice, my choice. I don't love you any less as a brother, I believe you conduct your affairs in a manner that G!d would approve. What you do with your beliefs would be acceptable to Him. What I think of how you conduct your affairs is irrelevant...I cannot answer to G!d for you anymore than you can answer to Him for me (you can't). What you think of how I conduct my affairs is also irrelevant, for the same reasons. We will both stand before G!d one day, and as long as you conducted your affairs in a righteous manner you will be found acceptable, the same for me, the same for any person. It isn't about what you believe....it is about what you do with what you believe.

 

[RabbiO]

Just as a point of information, and with apologies for momentarily derailing this thread - despite the multiple translations, in English anyway, reading “ten commandments” the Hebrew text does not itsellf use the term “commandments“. It’s not that they are not commandments, it’s just not the term used. This is an instance where the 1917 JPS translation is better than the most recent JPS translation.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Most likely, though. Justin Martyr, writing 30 years later, treats Sunday worship as a given. Evidence suggests Jewish-Christians observed the Jewish Sabbath and then their own day on the Sunday.


Sunday was a normal workday in the Roman empire. Constantine decreed it as a day of rest.


Well Acts indicates Christians meeting on Sunday, (Acts 20:7), as does 1 Corinthians 16:2.

Colossians 2:14-17: "He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross. So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality.”
Romans 14:5-6, "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord..."

There was probably Sunday and Saturday worship, and the Bishops brought it all into line.

I read somewhere that the Ethiopic and Eritrean Tawahedo Orthodox churches still to this day use both Saturday and Sunday for worship, calling Saturday the Sabbath and Sunday The Lord's Day

 

[juantoo3]

Just as a point of information, and with apologies for momentarily derailing this thread - despite the multiple translations, in English anyway, reading “ten commandments” the Hebrew text does not itsellf use the term “commandments“. It’s not that they are not commandments, it’s just not the term used. This is an instance where the 1917 JPS translation is better than the most recent JPS translation.

What then is the proper term to use?

 

[TheLightWithin]

What then is the proper term to use?

If I understand, in the Hebrew Bible there are something like over 600 commandments all told. In that context, the list Christians call the Ten Commandments doesn't have a unique status.
I'll wait to see if RabbiO confirms or disconfirms this, and what other insights he will offer.

 

[juantoo3]

If I understand, in the Hebrew Bible there are something like over 600 commandments all told. In that context, the list Christians call the Ten Commandments doesn't have a unique status.
I'll wait to see if RabbiO confirms or disconfirms this, and what other insights he will offer.

That would be reference to the 613 Levitical Laws, I believe they are called Mitzvot. It's been a long time, but probably the most "famous" among Gentiles are the food laws...no meat with milk or cheese (thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk), no pork (doesn't chew the cud), no horse or camel (doesn't have cloven hooves), only fish with fins and scales (no shark, no shellfish). I think those are the highlights, but there are lengthy rules for Kosher. There are other laws as well regarding clothing. I know there are many more, but it has been years and to modern life most are scholarly curiosities without a lot of application. At least in the Jewish world as I understand, there are plenty of councilors to assist with questions of Kosher.

The Noahide Laws are what the Jews deem universal laws, a kind of presumption of a sort that civilized peoples everywhere would -or should- conduct themselves.

The Seven Laws
The seven Noahide laws as traditionally enumerated in the Babylonian Talmud Sanhedrin 56a-b and Tosefta Avodah Zarah 9:4,[4][6][9][10] are the following:[1][4][5][6][7]

1. Not to worship idols.
2. Not to curse God.
3. Not to commit murder.
4. Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
5. Not to steal.
6. Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.
7. To establish courts of justice.

According to the Talmud, the seven laws were given first to Adam and subsequently to Noah.[1][2][6][14] However, the Tannaitic and Amoraitic rabbinic sages (1st–6th centuries CE) disagreed on the exact number of Noahide laws that were originally given to Adam.[2][5][6] Six of the seven laws were exegetically derived from passages in the Book of Genesis,[1][5][6][14][15] with the seventh being the establishment of courts of justice.[5][6]

The earliest complete rabbinic version of the seven Noahide laws can be found in the Tosefta:[2][16][17]

Seven commandments were commanded of the sons of Noah:

1. concerning adjudication (dinim)
2. concerning idolatry (avodah zarah)
3. concerning blasphemy (qilelat ha-Shem)
4. concerning sexual immorality (gilui arayot)
5. concerning blood-shed (shefikhut damim)
6. concerning robbery (gezel)
7. concerning a limb torn from a living animal (ever min ha-hay)

Seven Laws of Noah - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As you can see there is great similarity in spirit if not letter to the Ten Commandments that most Christians understand.

Years ago I started a thread comparing the basic beliefs of different faiths, and pretty much all of the world faiths had essentially similar moral foundations that agreed with the Ten Commandments (and it with them). Far too much similarity to my mind to ignore.

We all get lost in the details.

Jesus gave us two Commands, which if observed cover all of the ten. Love G!d with all of your heart, mind, soul and strength; and love your neighbor as yourself. In this is the Law and the Prophets.

Solomon put it as: Let us hear the sum of the matter; Fear G!d, and keep His Commandments.

And I absolutely invite RabbiO to correct anything here where I have mispoken.

 

[moralorel]

Here are quite a few quotes and writings from the Catholic church about the Sabbath being changed to Sunday. Notice how they don't try to argue that Sunday worship was biblical. Matter of fact, they say the opposite. The Catholic church takes credit for changing it due to divine authority. So don't take my word for it.

Cardinal Gibbons, in Faith of Our Fathers, 92nd ed., p. 89, freely admits, “You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we [the Catholic Church] never sanctify.”

Again, “The Catholic Church, … by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday” (The Catholic Mirror, official publication of James Cardinal Gibbons, Sept. 23, 1893).

“Protestants do not realize that by observing Sunday, they accept the authority of the spokesperson of the Church, the Pope” (Our Sunday Visitor, February 5, 1950).

“Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change [Saturday Sabbath to Sunday] was her act... And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things” (H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons).

The Catholic Church claims that “the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact” (Catholic Record of London, Ontario Sept 1, 1923).

“Prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the Catholic Church alone. The Catholic Church says, by my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week. And lo! The entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the Holy Catholic Church” (Thomas Enright, CSSR, President, Redemptorist College [Roman Catholic], Kansas City, MO, Feb. 18, 1884).

“The Pope has power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ. The Pope has authority and has often exercised it, to dispense with the command of Christ” (Decretal, de Tranlatic Episcop).

“The sun was a foremost god with heathendom… There is, in truth, something royal, kingly about the sun, making it a fit emblem of Jesus, the Sun of Justice. Hence the church in these countries would seem to have said, ‘Keep that old pagan name. It shall remain consecrated, sanctified’” The Catholic World, March 1994, p. 809

"Canon 29- Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday. But shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honor. And, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day." Hefele's Councils, Vol.2, b. 6. Council Laodicia 365AD

“It was the holy Catholic Church that changed the day of rest from Saturday to Sunday, the 1st day of the week. And it not only compelled all to keep Sunday, but at the Council of Laodicea, AD 364, anathematized those who kept the Sabbath and urged all persons to labor on the 7th day under penalty of anathema.” Catholic Priest T. Enright, CSSR, Kansas City, MO

“Protestantism, in discarding the authority of the church, has no good reason for its Sunday theory, and ought, logically, to keep Saturday with the Jews.” American Catholic Quarterly Review, Jan 1883

“How do you prove that the church has power to institute festivals?” ”Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionist agree with her; -she could have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.” A Doctrinal Catechism, Steve Kennan, p. 174

“The Bible says remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day. The Catholic church says No! By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week. And lo the entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic church.” American Sentinel, Father Enright, June 1893

“Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday… not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church’s sense of its own power… People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep the Saturday holy.” Saint Catherine Catholic Church Sentinel, May 21, 1995

“The authority of the Church could, therefore, not be bound to the authority of the Scriptures, because the Church had changed… the Sabbath into Sunday, not by the command of Christ, but by its own authority.” Canon on Tradition, p. 263

“Sunday is our mark of authority… The church s above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.” Catholic Record, Sept 1, 1923

“Nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the [Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible” To Tell You the Truth, The Catholic Virginian, Oct. 3, 1947, p. 9

"Sunday – fulfillment of the Sabbath. Sunday is expressly distinguished from the Sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the Sabbath… The Sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ… In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church’s holy days as legal holidays.” The Catechism of the Catholic Church Section 2 Article 3 (1994)

“The (Catholic) Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her Founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter, the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.” The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942

“But since Saturday, not Sunday, is specified in the Bible, isn’t it curious that non-Catholics who profess to take their religion directly from the Bible and not from the Church, observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Yes, of course, it is inconsistency but this change was made about fifteen centuries before Protestantism was born, and by that time the custom was universally observed. They have continued the custom even though it rests upon the authority of the Catholic Church and not upon an explicit text from the Bible. That observance remains as a reminder of the Mother Church from which the non-Catholic sects broke away like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock of her hair.” Dr. John O’Brien, Faith of Millions, pp. 543-544

“Reason and common sense demand the acceptance of One or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday, or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise is impossible.” The Catholic Mirror, December 23, 1893

“She took the pagan Sunday and made it the Christian Sunday… and thus the pagan Sunday, dedicated to Balder, became the Christian Sunday sacred to Jesus.” Catholic World, March 1894, p. 809

“Of course the Catholic church claims that the change was her act, and the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical power.” Faith of our Fathers, Cardinal Gibbons

“Sunday is a Catholic institution, and its claims to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles… From the beginning to the end of Scripture there is not a single passage which warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.” Catholic Press (Sydney) August 25, 1900

“If Protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church.” Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal in a letter dated February 10, 1920

 

[Thomas]

Here are quite a few quotes and writings from the Catholic church about the Sabbath being changed to Sunday.

Hang on ... That's not quite accurate.

The Sabbath has not been changed – the Sabbath is Saturday, the Jewish day of observance.
The Lord's Day is Sunday, the Christian day of observance.

Notice how they don't try to argue that Sunday worship was biblical.

Nevertheless, it is arguably there in Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:2 – not definitive, but its clear from Acts and from the earliest traditions that Christians met on the day after the Sabbath for their own liturgical practice.

Cardinal Gibbons, in Faith of Our Fathers, 92nd ed., p. 89, freely admits ...

Well ... I recall on my degree course a tutor, a Doctor of Canon Law, said that one day we might have to challenge a bishop. We laughed, but he didn't. "I'm serious. If the bishop is wrong, it's your moral duty to correct him."

So, on this I would respectfully request clarification of the good Cardinal on every point, and as regards this one:
The Catholic Church claims that “the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact” (Catholic Record of London, Ontario Sept 1, 1923).
Well if that is Cardinal Gibbons, then he is in error. The Church interprets the Bible, but is not above the Bible.

As for the much-quoted 'Thomas Enright, CSSR, President, Redemptorist College' – this seems to be fake?

I've started a new thread re Sunday.

 

[juantoo3]

Hang on ... That's not quite accurate.

The Sabbath has not been changed – the Sabbath is Saturday, the Jewish day of observance.
The Lord's Day is Sunday, the Christian day of observance.

But that's not fully correct either. The Sabbath prior to Constantine was *also* called the Lord's Day. So the name was misappropriated, or at least semantically swapped.

Ask a knowledgeable person of the Jewish faith...Sabbath and Lord's Day are synonymous.

Nevertheless, it is arguably there in Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:2 – not definitive, but its clear from Acts and from the earliest traditions that Christians met on the day after the Sabbath for their own liturgical practice.

Acts is a going away party for Paul. 1 Corinthians has *nothing* to do with a day of worship so the interpretation is taken out of context.

 

[Thomas]

But that's not fully correct either. The Sabbath prior to Constantine was *also* called the Lord's Day. So the name was misappropriated, or at least semantically swapped.

Was it? I'd need context for that. I mean, was the name derived from Christian usage?

Ask a knowledgeable person of the Jewish faith...Sabbath and Lord's Day are synonymous.

I'm asking! But that doesn't invalidate the Christian reference. The Eighth Day is another.

Acts is a going away party for Paul. 1 Corinthians has *nothing* to do with a day of worship.

Well ... I read acts as Paul discoursing at length after the Liturgy ('when we were assembled to break bread') before departing the next day.

1 Corinthians suggests a collection made when they are all gathered ...

 

[juantoo3]

Was it? I'd need context for that. I mean, was the name derived from Christian usage?

I already provided the Biblical context...Genesis and Exodus, there are other times the Sabbath is directly referenced in the Old Testament as the Lord's Day. So the short answer is yes...Christians co-opted the phrase and changed the meaning.

And everything I recall you using to support your position referencing "the Eighth Day" are extra-Biblical. It is not Canonical.

 

[juantoo3]

Allow me to ask, did you or did you not write:

I would say there is the Word of God which transcends language, and that if one's heart is right, then the language of Scripture is immaterial, as the Spirit will lead one to understanding and illuminate the soul.

?

Let me be plain...I have known good people, as people go for we are not supposed to call people good, who were Catholic. I have known good people who were Protestant. I have known good people who were Jewish. I have known good people who were Hindu. I have known good people who were Buddhist. I have known good people who were Shaman. I have known good people who were of no faith or indeterminate faith. As people go, being good is not determined by what faith you proclaim, it is whether or not you put your faith into practice.

I no longer have the restraints of a moderator here. For all those years when I was a mod I typically posted things of interest to me while inviting others to share in the discovery. I learned a great deal here, but none of what I learned truly surprised me. Now I can be explicit, and I feel a need and drive to be so.

I have an ancient memory that still lingers in my mind, I remember vividly as a preschool age toddler thinking I don't belong here, I am here for a short time and then I am going back home. As a toddler, more than 60 years ago and that thought is still to this day a vivid memory.

My memory only has meaning to me. In terms of philosophy or law, it is inadmissible as evidence. It is subjective at best and hearsay otherwise.

That doesn't make it any less vivid or meaningful to me.

I trust my soul to no man.

I am not a teacher. The Word tells us those who teach against G!d's Word receive a greater condemnation, I don't want that kind of responsibility.

I am but a lowly sinner, I will be happy to climb under the fence to barely make it into heaven.

The Spirit leads me to understand and illuminate my soul by the Word. That illumination transcends language.

 

[Faithfulservant]

God made Sabbath for man and not man for the Sabbath. Jesus said He is Lord of the Sabbath and I identify Jesus as my Sabbath rest. It was always called The First Day of the week.. The word Sunday came later and that would have started at Sundown on Saturday. In Acts the apostles met on the first day of the week in people's homes and collections were taken. I've been sucked into what I consider cults that claim non Sabbath keepers were going to hell and that it was considered the mark of the beast. I have no problems with people choosing to worship and observe on the Sabbath. I choose to worship and observe every day and how many of us have to work on Saturdays? In my conversations with Jewish friends that practice Shabbat is that it's precious to them as it brings them closer to G!d as it is with everything they do in practicing their faith.. By making it a law for Christians it is not creating a closeness with God but creating a law for themselves that makes them feel more holy and it is divisive and doing the exact opposite of what the Sabbath was intended for. Apples and oranges. This is my very humble opinion.

 

[juantoo3]

And this is the problem that comes of such bickering. Back once again to Romans 14...

Romans 14:1-3:
14 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

This isn't anything to do with eating. This is about petty squabbles that don't amount to a hill of beans.

Let he who would remove the splinter from my eye first remove the beam from his own eye...