Did Most Early Christians Believe The Divinity of Christ?

Thomas said:
The Sabbath has not been changed – the Sabbath is Saturday, the Jewish day of observance.
The Lord's Day is Sunday, the Christian day of observance.
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I agree this is the language of it, at least from what I have read about the Ethiopic and Eritrean Tawahedo Orthodox Churches (from their much larger canon of scriptures, maybe there's something in those additional scriptures that spell it out more)
Even if the words The Lord's Day and the Sabbath day were used in Judaism to describe the same day, it seems the early church saw them as two days... and the forerunner of the modern weekend.
 
I would rather love my neighbor as myself, than start a war, or end up on someone's wristwatch list.

As a mod I couldn't directly divulge my own personal beliefs, other than in some rare few instances, and you know I am writing the truth. I did my level best to keep a neutral tone in all of my discussions.

I have no alliance.

The closest would be to Judaism, only Judaism wants nothing to do with me. So I am in a no man's land. But my arguments have always included (my understanding of) the Jewish position.

Jesus was a Jew.

Jesus was an observant Jew, other than a little nitpik about gathering from the field on a Sabbath day, and the little fracas that got him nailed to the cross. Jesus taught from the Old Testament, to people who understood the Old Testament pretty darn well.

Jesus' followers were equally immersed in the Old Testament. The oldest New Testament book, if I recall, is Mark...and what?, 20 odd years after Jesus died. None of the rest of the New Testament is closer to the source than that. And a lot of the Patriarchs are falling asleep as the KJV tells us at about this time. But a lot of the Apostles are a mystery after the Acts....other than rumors like Thomas in India.

Christianity was indistinguishable from Judaism at the time of the Fall of the Temple. You had to be Jewish to even be a Christian...and ALL that entailed. That included having your tallywacker snipped. That's how it was at the central office in Jerusalem. To a Roman soldier passing through, Jews and Christians were one and the same, he couldn't pick one from the other in a crowd of strangers.

Wars have been fought over less disagreement. I have no interest in starting a war, or giving anyone else misguided cause either.

We need to get out of our heads and more into doing. I think we live in interesting times....in the Chinese curse sort of way.
 
moralorel said:
Here are quite a few quotes and writings from the Catholic church about the Sabbath being changed to Sunday. Notice how they don't try to argue that Sunday worship was biblical. Matter of fact, they say the opposite. The Catholic church takes credit for changing it due to divine authority. So don't take my word for it.

Cardinal Gibbons, in Faith of Our Fathers, 92nd ed., p. 89, freely admits, “You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we [the Catholic Church] never sanctify.”

Again, “The Catholic Church, … by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday” (The Catholic Mirror, official publication of James Cardinal Gibbons, Sept. 23, 1893).

“Protestants do not realize that by observing Sunday, they accept the authority of the spokesperson of the Church, the Pope” (Our Sunday Visitor, February 5, 1950).

“Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change [Saturday Sabbath to Sunday] was her act... And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things” (H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons).

The Catholic Church claims that “the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact” (Catholic Record of London, Ontario Sept 1, 1923).

“Prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the Catholic Church alone. The Catholic Church says, by my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week. And lo! The entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the Holy Catholic Church” (Thomas Enright, CSSR, President, Redemptorist College [Roman Catholic], Kansas City, MO, Feb. 18, 1884).

“The Pope has power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ. The Pope has authority and has often exercised it, to dispense with the command of Christ” (Decretal, de Tranlatic Episcop).

“The sun was a foremost god with heathendom… There is, in truth, something royal, kingly about the sun, making it a fit emblem of Jesus, the Sun of Justice. Hence the church in these countries would seem to have said, ‘Keep that old pagan name. It shall remain consecrated, sanctified’” The Catholic World, March 1994, p. 809

"Canon 29- Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday. But shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honor. And, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day." Hefele's Councils, Vol.2, b. 6. Council Laodicia 365AD

“It was the holy Catholic Church that changed the day of rest from Saturday to Sunday, the 1st day of the week. And it not only compelled all to keep Sunday, but at the Council of Laodicea, AD 364, anathematized those who kept the Sabbath and urged all persons to labor on the 7th day under penalty of anathema.” Catholic Priest T. Enright, CSSR, Kansas City, MO

“Protestantism, in discarding the authority of the church, has no good reason for its Sunday theory, and ought, logically, to keep Saturday with the Jews.” American Catholic Quarterly Review, Jan 1883

“How do you prove that the church has power to institute festivals?” ”Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionist agree with her; -she could have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.” A Doctrinal Catechism, Steve Kennan, p. 174

“The Bible says remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day. The Catholic church says No! By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week. And lo the entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic church.” American Sentinel, Father Enright, June 1893

“Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday… not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church’s sense of its own power… People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep the Saturday holy.” Saint Catherine Catholic Church Sentinel, May 21, 1995

“The authority of the Church could, therefore, not be bound to the authority of the Scriptures, because the Church had changed… the Sabbath into Sunday, not by the command of Christ, but by its own authority.” Canon on Tradition, p. 263

“Sunday is our mark of authority… The church s above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.” Catholic Record, Sept 1, 1923

“Nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the [Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible” To Tell You the Truth, The Catholic Virginian, Oct. 3, 1947, p. 9

"Sunday – fulfillment of the Sabbath. Sunday is expressly distinguished from the Sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the Sabbath… The Sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ… In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church’s holy days as legal holidays.” The Catechism of the Catholic Church Section 2 Article 3 (1994)

“The (Catholic) Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her Founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter, the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.” The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942

“But since Saturday, not Sunday, is specified in the Bible, isn’t it curious that non-Catholics who profess to take their religion directly from the Bible and not from the Church, observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Yes, of course, it is inconsistency but this change was made about fifteen centuries before Protestantism was born, and by that time the custom was universally observed. They have continued the custom even though it rests upon the authority of the Catholic Church and not upon an explicit text from the Bible. That observance remains as a reminder of the Mother Church from which the non-Catholic sects broke away like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock of her hair.” Dr. John O’Brien, Faith of Millions, pp. 543-544

“Reason and common sense demand the acceptance of One or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday, or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise is impossible.” The Catholic Mirror, December 23, 1893

“She took the pagan Sunday and made it the Christian Sunday… and thus the pagan Sunday, dedicated to Balder, became the Christian Sunday sacred to Jesus.” Catholic World, March 1894, p. 809

“Of course the Catholic church claims that the change was her act, and the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical power.” Faith of our Fathers, Cardinal Gibbons

“Sunday is a Catholic institution, and its claims to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles… From the beginning to the end of Scripture there is not a single passage which warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.” Catholic Press (Sydney) August 25, 1900

“If Protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church.” Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal in a letter dated February 10, 1920
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Funny peculiar how Catholics and Protestants both observe that Sunday has no root as Day of the Lord in the Bible, but both keep to it...

Maybe that's a good reason why the Holy day has been changed to Friday ...
 
talib-al-kalim said:
Funny peculiar how Catholics and Protestants both observe that Sunday has no root as Day of the Lord in the Bible, but both keep to it...

Maybe that's a good reason why the Holy day has been changed to Friday ...
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Frankly I don't think many give it any thought. They are blissfully happy to believe what the pulpit tells them.

Not unlike many other faiths in that respect.
 
wil said:
Who all goes Saturday?

Ethiopian orthodox?
Seventh day Adventists?
Rastas?

Does anyone else day start and end at sundown?
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A few spinoffs of the Worldwide Church of God [Herbert Armstrong] (descendants of SDA but doctrinal differences abound)
Seventh Day Baptists (ancestor of SDA but continue to exist in their own right
Some Apostolic or Pentecostal Churches are 7th Day
Some of the Sacred Name or Hebrew Roots / Messianic Movement assemblies are 7th Day
 
wil said:
And the sabbath Friday (did not know they start days at.sundown) too confusing for me
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The Friday is not like the Shabbat. It has been the market day in Medina, so most people were present on Friday afternoon. But the Quran states that the Shabbat has only been decreed for the Jews.
The Jews agree on that; it's not part of the Noachide Laws they consider valid for all people.
 
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wil said:
And the sabbath Friday (did not know they start days at.sundown) too confusing for me
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Yeah that's the tradition, sundown to sundown.
I think Sabbath keeping on Sunday has been practiced that way too.
I seem to remember it from the Little House on the Prairie books
 
juantoo3 said:
No matter how often I put what G!d said, there is rebuttal from this man or that man.
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For my part, I would rather reason than rebuttal.

Jesus said "I am the Lord of the Sabbath" (Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:28, and Luke 6:5). That speaks volumes to me.

Where we depart is in a belief of what 'Sabbath' is and means; not on what day of the week it is celebrated.

To the Christian, Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Sabbath. It's as simple as that. We celebrate the Sabbath in Him, for He is our rest, as spoken of at length in Hebrews 4, and succinctly in John 14:27: "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you ... "

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The Catholic Faith is not a literal faith – if that offends people, then so be it. To us, the Word is Christ. Our belief is in Him.

In a broader context, it's worth recalling 'the hymn of Colossians' – generally held by scholars to be a hymn that the author copied into the text, and as such an indicator of specifically Christological hymns sung in the early church at least before 70AD, allowing for a later dating of the letter. Quite possibly the hymn was composed before the Gospels took their final forms.

"Giving thanks to God the Father, who hath made us worthy to be partakers of the lot of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins;" (Colossians 1:12-14).

"And he is the head of the body, the church ... Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father, that all fulness should dwell; And through him to reconcile all things unto himself, making peace through the blood of his cross, both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven." (v18-20).

+++
 
I can think of no reason to challenge the meaning of the Sabbath you present here, my only objection has always been the day.

I think I am beginning to see more clearly what all of the scholars Mr Garaffa was sorting through were on about. These are matters I've long known, but never connected the dots, and I really think now after this conversation that it all comes down to scholarship looking at the matter incorrectly.

There is no question Christianity has adopted or merged certain Pagan attributes, but that was never due to anything to do with Paul. And the Catholic Church freely admits as much, you've stated on more than one occasion where the Church "baptized" certain Pagan practices and sacred locations.

We come back around to what I noted in the history thread when I became aware of Constantine's anti-Semitic leanings in his official pronouncements. We end up with a Jewish Rabbi executed in Roman fashion by Romans ostensibly for an insult to Roman authority, but somehow the story gets turned so the Jewish authority is responsible. Later, this executed Jewish Rabbi becomes a rallying cry and is officially elevated to the status of a god (think as a Roman here), and it wouldn't serve the political powers to be seen as responsible for executing the person that was now being elevated.

This custom of elevating was common practice among the Romans, every Emperor since Augustus Caesar had been elevated to the status of a god. It was unusual for Rome to elevate an executed Jewish Rabbi, but Constantine had his reasons and he also was not as much of a glory hog as most Roman Emperors were. (For example, after Milvian Bridge Constantine did not sacrifice to the gods as all other Emperors before him had, instead he turned his back on Rome and left, and didn't return for another 20 years. He then set his capitol at Constantinople)

You and I have clashed over the impact of politics on the development of the Christian faith before, so you already know my position on the matter. Moving the day is only one emblem. There is so much more, and you and I have discussed these things many times over the years, and I am absolutely certain there are matters I don't even know about, and questions I don't even know to ask.

Is the 800 pound gorilla always right?
 
Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace

My faith teaches dispensationalism. God has dealt with the world and peoples differently since creation.

Dispensationalists understand the Bible to be organized into seven dispensations: Innocence (Genesis 1:1—3:7), Conscience (Genesis 3:8—8:22), Human Government (Genesis 9:1—11:32), Promise (Genesis 12:1—Exodus 19:25), Law (Exodus 20:1—Acts 2:4), Grace (Acts 2:4—Revelation 20:3), and the Millennial Kingdom (Revelation 20:4–6). Again, these dispensations are not paths to salvation, but manners in which God relates to man. Each dispensation includes a recognizable pattern of how God worked with people living in the dispensation. That pattern is 1) a responsibility, 2) a failure, 3) a judgment, and 4) grace to move on.
www.gotquestions.org

What is dispensationalism and is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org

What is dispensationalism and is it biblical? What are the key aspects of dispensational theology?
www.gotquestions.org
 
juantoo3 said:
I can think of no reason to challenge the meaning of the Sabbath you present here, my only objection has always been the day.
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Thus I hope you can see we honour the Sabbath in the spirit of its meaning and purpose.

juantoo3 said:
I think I am beginning to see more clearly what all of the scholars Mr Garaffa was sorting through were on about.
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I too have responded to Mr Garaffa's claims, and show they are rebutted by both Christian and Jewish scholars.

juantoo3 said:
There is no question Christianity has adopted or merged certain Pagan attributes, but that was never due to anything to do with Paul. And the Catholic Church freely admits as much, you've stated on more than one occasion where the Church "baptized" certain Pagan practices and sacred locations.
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Quite. There were Christians before Christ, after all. Where there is reverence and truth, we honour it.

juantoo3 said:
We end up with a Jewish Rabbi executed in Roman fashion by Romans ostensibly for an insult to Roman authority ...
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What? Not according to Scripture. Pilate argued for His release.

juantoo3 said:
... but somehow the story gets turned so the Jewish authority is responsible.
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You mean someone tampered with Scripture?

juantoo3 said:
Later, this executed Jewish Rabbi becomes a rallying cry and is officially elevated to the status of a god (think as a Roman here), and it wouldn't serve the political powers to be seen as responsible for executing the person that was now being elevated.
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Well we are in complete disagreement here, obviously.

I don't know why you keep banging on about Constantine. Sunday was clearly a day of Christian observance long before Constantine.

As for Roman practice, again, irrelevant.
 
Thomas said:
There were Christians before Christ, after all..
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How so?

Thomas said:
What? Not according to Scripture. Pilate argued for His release.
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Mmm .. many from the Sanhedrin wanted him out of the way.

Thomas said:
I don't know why you keep banging on about Constantine. Sunday was clearly a day of Christian observance long before Constantine.
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I doubt that is true for the followers of Jesus in Jerusalem, before they were expelled.
 
juantoo3 said:
Jesus was a Jew.
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Yes.

juantoo3 said:
Jesus was an observant Jew, other than a little nitpik about gathering from the field on a Sabbath day, and the little fracas that got him nailed to the cross. Jesus taught from the Old Testament, to people who understood the Old Testament pretty darn well.
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Calling the crucifixion 'a little fracas' is unworthy of you.

juantoo3 said:
Jesus' followers were equally immersed in the Old Testament.
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Yep. and saw Jesus as its fulfilment.

juantoo3 said:
The oldest New Testament book, if I recall, is Mark...and what?, 20 odd years after Jesus died. None of the rest of the New Testament is closer to the source than that. And a lot of the Patriarchs are falling asleep as the KJV tells us at about this time. But a lot of the Apostles are a mystery after the Acts....other than rumors like Thomas in India.
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The Hebrew Scriptures were written generations, in some cases centuries later. So were Buddhist Scriptures. This is a specious argument.

juantoo3 said:
Christianity was indistinguishable from Judaism at the time of the Fall of the Temple.
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Wrong. They gathered on the Lord's Day, they celebrated their own Liturgy, had the Sacrament of the Eucharist ...

juantoo3 said:
You had to be Jewish to even be a Christian and ALL that entailed.
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No you didn't, reread your Acts.

juantoo3 said:
That included having your tallywacker snipped. That's how it was at the central office in Jerusalem.
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Oh, good grief ...

This has gone too far now.
 
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