Did Most Early Christians Believe The Divinity of Christ?
- Thread starter RJM
- Start date
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Most Protestants would..
The Christians of your acquaintance argument is covered by a number of logical fallacies – they don't determine doctrine, clearly. Nor can I answer for the opinions of people I don't know and have never met, and you might well have misconstrued, as you misconstrue me.
That's your right, and I respect it, even though you're wrong.
Both Hebrew and Christian calendars line up with the celebration of Spring – so is the coincidence inclusive of the Jews?
The Torah commands “Guard the month of spring, and make [then] the Passover offering.” (Deuteronomy 16:1).
This directive to the Sanhedrin required them to constantly adjust the calendar to ensure that the celebration of the Passover always fell around the Spring Full Moon.
Prior to the fall of Jerusalem, the Sanhedrin would determine whether it should be declared a leap year. The primary factor was the spring equinox. If the spring equinox would fell Nisan 16 or later, then a leap year was declared.
However, the observation of spring-like conditions needed to be evidenced. If the barley had not yet ripened, and the trees were not in blossom, then that was sufficient reason to delay Nisan by adding a leap-month (Adar II). Spring needed to be felt; it should be bright and green.
(Even factors like roads or bridges in disrepair due to the winter, impeding the ability of the pilgrims to travel to Jerusalem for Passover, was sufficient to announce a leap year.)
Thus the Jewish calendar is 'worked' to ensure Passover falls on the Full Moon in Spring.
After the fall of Jerusalem, in the 4th century, a revised calendar was introduced, with a fixed leap-month added 7 years out of a 19-year cycle.
The early Christians used the Jewish calendar, celebrating the Resurrection on the first Sunday after Nisan 15. At Nicaea, with relations between Jews and Christians being what they were (bad, a long time before Constantine), and the fact that Nisan 15 was a moveable feast, the Council decided to set the date independent of Jewish reckoning.
Bearing in mind that both Christians and Jews work the calendar to establish a date on or after the Spring Full Moon, and both have changed calendar reckoning as they see fit, I think the argument against Nicaea is a weak one.
Looking at this Jewish website, let's incorporate this:
" ... you’re correct that the Torah refers to Passover on the 14th... "
The explanation why it is celebrated on Nisan 15 is based on Tradition – with sound reasoning – not Scripture.
"... the weeklong celebration is consistently called the Festival of Matzahs in the Torah, it has come to be known as Pesach, or Passover, in common parlance and even in our liturgy."
So "Pasch" or "Passover" is Traditional, not Scriptural.
The calendars do occasionally line up. In 2018 and 2019, the first night of Passover fell on Good Friday.
The calendar is also worked that Passover can never fall on a Thursday. If Passover started on a Thursday, that would push Rosh Hashanah the following year to start on Saturday – and neither Rosh Hashanah nor Yom Kippur can fall the day after Shabbat.
OK, bored now. I'm gonna take a page out of Bananabrain's book here ('Hur hur hur') – That's utter nonsense (he would have said 'b*ll*cks').
Ad hominem... speak for yourself ... yadda yadda ...
+++
Thomas is back in the room:
Your prejudice against the church clouds your vision and justice. It's a shame.
But I'll still have that drink!
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
I need a drink after following this one!
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
All the these Calendar changes! The Hebrew calendar is the only one I would trust if it was even possible to ignore the rest of them.. but because the calendars have been changed how can anyone even know what the true day in history even is.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
I believe the appropriate response is "hrmph!"
I can't call it prejudice if it is considerately reasoned. I accept you disagree with my conclusions...but there are close to 8 billion people in the world who will not agree with you on every matter at every moment.Thomas said:
And I'll join you!
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Because it is calculated by the Lunar calendar.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Exodus 12:
As I understand it:
"Observe the month of new corn, which is the first of the spring, that thou mayst celebrate the phase to the Lord thy God: because in this month the Lord thy God brought thee out of Egypt by night." (Deuteronomy 16:1)
So what actual day, or date, we have no idea. Just the month – Spring.
A quick look at Jewish exegesis online links Passover to Spring because Scripture says so, AND because Spring is a time of rebirth and renewal.
If God was going to act, then according the 'symbolic book of nature', Spring would be the time to do it.
I mean, the instruction to keep the Sabbath Day holy, but nowhere is it defined that God started creating on a Sunday, and finished on Friday ... just that He started on Day One, and finished on Day Six. And as we don't have a sun or moon on Day One, then ... etc., etc.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
However...even *if* that information was somehow lost...it was re-established in the Wilderness wandering in the desert eating Manna for 40 years. After 40 years and at least one entire generation, I have no doubt G!d drilled the point home over which day was to be observed.
We have problems with "which day" here in the UK re Ramadan.
People follow different scholars, which argue over which day the month starts due to moon sighting.
I always tell my family that the most important thing is that we all celebrate together, and not
to argue about "which is right" .. but rival sects can't seem to agree .. it becomes political,
with comments such as "we won't believe/follow Saudia" ..
Funny that .. because they have no choice when going on the Pilgrimage.
Fragilegums
Member
It is intensely fascinating to study what early Christians' believed, do you also think that much of what many early Christians' believed has possibly somewhat been manipulated limited or distorted through the lens of 2000 years of history ?
What documents would we study about early Christians' and their beliefs ?
as far as I have found, there are not that many documents existing outside of the documentation that is found in the Roman Catholic Church that summarizes what the Roman Church Leaders had to say about Non Catholic " so called " heretical or erratic faiths,
Are the only documentation available for us to study centered specifically around the the trinity - the human and divine disagreements of God and argumentations between the Catholic Church and those who they castigate as hereticks
The Arian Controversy
Sabellianism:
Adoptionism:
Nestorianism:
Apollinarianism:
Arianism:
it seems everyone else were not able to preserve their faith in writing, are the only surviving documentation that exists today are what the Roman Catholic Church has preserved about those who they deemed as heretical. ?
does anyone else here know of documentation about early Christians outside of those handed down by the Vatican ?
What documents would we study about early Christians' and their beliefs ?
as far as I have found, there are not that many documents existing outside of the documentation that is found in the Roman Catholic Church that summarizes what the Roman Church Leaders had to say about Non Catholic " so called " heretical or erratic faiths,
Are the only documentation available for us to study centered specifically around the the trinity - the human and divine disagreements of God and argumentations between the Catholic Church and those who they castigate as hereticks
The Arian Controversy
Sabellianism:
Adoptionism:
Nestorianism:
Apollinarianism:
Arianism:
it seems everyone else were not able to preserve their faith in writing, are the only surviving documentation that exists today are what the Roman Catholic Church has preserved about those who they deemed as heretical. ?
does anyone else here know of documentation about early Christians outside of those handed down by the Vatican ?
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Oh boy.
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
@Fragilegums according to your profile you joined in 2018. What took you so long to post? The introduction thread is a great way for us to learn something about you.
I have to say peoples first posts tend to be a little less inflammatory lol
I have to say peoples first posts tend to be a little less inflammatory lol
TheLightWithin
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Well, for ancient documentation, there's actually a lot on this site. https://www.interfaith.org/christianity/early-writings/
The Ethiopic bibles and the Assyrian Church of the East have additional books.
Of course you could look into the Dead Sea Scrolls and lost gospels... Or anything you can find that touches the topic of the First Century Church
Here's something that might interest you
Amazon.com: Forgotten Origins: The Lost Jewish History of Jesus and Early Christianity eBook : Bejarano-Gutierrez, Dr. Juan Marcos : Kindle Store
Amazon.com: Forgotten Origins: The Lost Jewish History of Jesus and Early Christianity eBook : Bejarano-Gutierrez, Dr. Juan Marcos : Kindle Store
www.amazon.com
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
I'm not sure of your motivation.
How do you mean "early Christians?" Before the Temple was razed? Before Bar Kochba and the Diaspora? Before Constantine and Nicea?
Are you looking for religious texts? Or historical texts? Or commentators / Church Fathers? Accepted texts, or Apocryphon?
If you are looking for clear cut answers to something, I doubt you will find it. Learned people have discussed these matters for centuries without resolution.
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TheLightWithin
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Or, hopefully, maybe, they just want to know.
I fondly remember my early days going down this rabbit hole
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
I hope for the best, but I've also seen those who want to use the info for less than noble purposes. I would rather not assist the latter.
Besides the usuals - Josephus, Dead Sea Scrolls, Gospel of Thomas, etc, one of my favorites from ages ago is called The Lost Books of the Bible and the Forgotten Books of Eden. Between this book and the collection of Apocrypha Brian collected here, I would say it is pretty comprehensive of the first hundred years or so of Christianity and late Temple era Judaism. For the hard core student there is the Peshitta.