The Jewish Zohar Shekhinah and the Christian, & Mormon Holy Spirit

muhammad_isa said:
What does "in the beginning" mean? it is ambiguous.

"In the beginning, there was a fairy godmother".

Of course, it is designed to make one think of Genesis 1
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the Earth." [ NOT ambiguous ]

Why is it not ambiguous? Because it is not claiming anything other that what happened at the beginning of time.
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I guess I'm okay with ambiguous? In Genesis it was the creative word which began the restoration of a fallen creation.



muhammad_isa said:
I know .. but it is circular reasoning. i.e. Christ is God because he is the logos etc.

"The arms of God" reached out to us from Moses and Abraham as well.
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Yes, but this reaching out is from eternity into time. When time is entered, things are trapped. So in the case of Christ, the reaching out is God allowing himself to be trapped in time for our sakes.
 
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Thomas said:
Same way you believe in the Quran...
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Yes, I see.
..so you believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. OK

As you know, I believe that the Bible is a collection of scrolls by various authors and ages. i.e. Torah, Psalms and NT
I'm truly sorry that you feel angry about my discussion of the Bible.
I was raised with it, and it is a very important part of my life.

We all get angry, but anger is from the devil. That is our REAL enemy!
 
stranger said:
This would be Jesus the man though. Remember he is the God-man. So in a state of incarnation in human flesh, even though sinless, he would be limited and thus inferior to the Father. But when considered in spirit, as the eternal Word, he would be equal to the Father.
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That's it .. it must be true because the author of the gospel of John said so.
That same author also failed to tell us who this "beloved disciple" was,
that taught us something which Jesus failed to teach us himself.
 
muhammad_isa said:
Mmm .. Abraham, David, Moses AND JESUS never talked about a logos.
Only some author of one of the Gospels talks about a logos.
Why do you want to make the whole foundation of faith on a logos?
Jesus did not alter the foundation of faith from the shema.

And Jesus answered him,
The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mark 12: 29
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Yes, I can't help but think that the addition (if even that is the correct way to view it) of a Logos concept adds more depth. Just because Jesus didn't talk about something doesn't mean it isn't important. There is a lot he did talk about that simply couldn't all be recorded back then... But this Shema? YES, that would have been very properly first and foremost in Jesus's Jewishness. It is fundamental. But, John claiming Jesus as Logos does not take away that foundation, but adds yet to it more in my thinking.
 
Thomas said:
Please stop trolling me.
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What is this?
You suggested that you believe that the Gospel of John is truth in the same way as I believe in the Qur'an.

I believe that the Qur'an is true because I believe that it is literally "the word of God". [ the author is God ]
That is why I said "..so you believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. OK".

I don't know. Almighty God knows what and why you believe what you do.
 
ScholarlySeeker said:
Yes, I can't help but think that the addition (if even that is the correct way to view it) of a Logos concept adds more depth. Just because Jesus didn't talk about something doesn't mean it isn't important.
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I can't agree with that.
The Bible is a VERY IMPORTANT BOOK.
It has been viewed for centuries as "the complete truth" and much of modern civilisation is based on it.
What is the point of Jesus appearing [ as God or otherwise ] coming to guide and save mankind from destruction,
if Jesus doesn't inform us what is important and what is not?

Of course, you could claim that there is some mysterious mechanism that God saves us by.
I wonder what that is exactly?
Does it matter what Jesus actually said .. or not?

ScholarlySeeker said:
John claiming Jesus as Logos does not take away that foundation, but adds yet to it more in my thinking.
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I'm not surprised you say that. It is an established way of thinking in the mainstream Christian world, due
to the Gospel of John being included in the Bible. The Bible canon was an historical decision at a time of great turmoil
in the Roman Empire.
 
muhammad_isa said:
That's it .. it must be true because the author of the gospel of John said so.
That same author also failed to tell us who this "beloved disciple" was,
that taught us something which Jesus failed to teach us himself.
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Well, it is commonly understood that it was John, one of the disciples.

There are other views. For instance Evelyn Underhill, a writer who dedicated most of her life to the study of mysticism, believes the author was not John but actually a great mystic author who was anonymous.

Squigglers and wrigglers here at interfaith might be interested. I don't actually have much to add in here, just that it was a view held by at least one writer that I respect a great deal.

Also I don't think PricelessPearl has yet answered my question regarding her view on "other ways" of demonstrating crucifixion. My question was, why not (share it)?
 
stranger said:
Why not? I won't judge it. Now you have me curious. :)
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Hi Stranger,

It means also to have one’s psyche shattered. It’s the death of the false self to be resurrected to the true Self, or Christ, within.

The thieves crucified on each side of Christ represents the self consciousness and subconsciousness that have been usurping God’s power. (We mistakenly believe that we are the actors in our lives; that we have a will or our own, that we are leading and making the decisions and taking the actions, but we aren’t doing anything.) The psyche is shattered and consciousness (God, Christ) descends into the depths of our being, or hell, and starts putting us back together. Basically, he dethrones Satan and puts himself on the throne. And the result is oneness with God. Or the realization that the only one doing anything within one’s being is God.

There are other ways to understand crucifixion as well.
 
PricelessPearl said:
The psyche is shattered and consciousness (God, Christ) descends into the depths of our being, or hell, and starts putting us back together.
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I can relate to that understanding.

It is very shamanic, in certain ways: the journey into a different realm of consciousness to find and reassemble fragments of a being. Like the myth of Osiris, in similar ways. Or certain interpretations of analytic psychology.

Thanks for sharing this. Do you have a background in any of the world-views I mentioned, @PricelessPearl?
 
muhammad_isa said:
What is this?
You suggested that you believe that the Gospel of John is truth in the same way as I believe in the Qur'an.

I believe that the Qur'an is true because I believe that it is literally "the word of God". [ the author is God ]
That is why I said "..so you believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. OK".

I don't know. Almighty God knows what and why you believe what you do.
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@Thomas has been posting his beliefs on these forums for nearly 20 years. His beliefs are intelligent, subtle and developing. He has forgotten more than you will ever know about Christian thought and belief.

You come here insulting not only his intelligence, but that of everyone who reads these forums. That is what trolling is.

Perhaps if @Thomas and I refuse to be goaded by your insults into responding on your simplistic level of discussion, you will find others to patronise and lecture to.

I suggest before continuing to insult him by telling him what he thinks, that you try to find out a bit of what he actually does think by having a look at @Thomas own website The Veil here on our homepage:

https://www.interfaith.org/christianity/the-veil/
 
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Cino said:
I can relate to that understanding.

It is very shamanic, in certain ways: the journey into a different realm of consciousness to find and reassemble fragments of a being. Like the myth of Osiris, in similar ways. Or certain interpretations of analytic psychology.

Thanks for sharing this. Do you have a background in any of the world-views I mentioned, @PricelessPearl?
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Hi there, my background would be that I underwent it. Interestingly enough, when going through what was a horrific and terrifying experience, the right people would appear in my life to give me a message or a book came to me. One book was, Shamanism and Psychology of CG Jung. Other books were Dark Night of the Soul by St John of the Cross and the Path to No-Self written by a nun who had the experience in her late teens (if I remember correctly).
 
stranger said:
Let's just take this part... How would this be done, through some remote high-hatting way or should it be done through a more real and vulnerable way? Because distance is safe and the alternative is not, there must be trust and vulnerability, all the things we fear most.
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God does it to you.
 
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stranger said:
..I don't actually have much to add in here, just that it was a view held by at least one writer that I respect a great deal.
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Of course you do. If it wasn't in the Bible canon, then you probably wouldn't.
..or at least, most people wouldn't.

I can't respect something that goes against what Jesus is reported to have said.
This is why we often get people throwing Bible quotes at each other, ignoring what Jesus said
for their "preferred view".

It is not about what we might prefer, It is about what Almighty God "prefers".
..and that is what Jesus taught us .. not some anonymous author that rambles on about an anonymous disciple.
 
muhammad_isa said:
Of course you do. If it wasn't in the Bible canon, then you probably wouldn't.
..or at least, most people wouldn't.

I can't respect something that goes against what Jesus is reported to have said.
This is why we often get people throwing Bible quotes at each other, ignoring what Jesus said
for their "preferred view".

It is not about what we might prefer, It is about what Almighty God "prefers".
..and that is what Jesus taught us .. not some anonymous author that rambles on about an anonymous disciple.
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Well, I must prefer what the Almighty God prefers. Is there any other way. And so I must follow his direction. This will continue, and as some of us like to put it metaphorically here on interfaith, we stay on the train all the way to the end of the line. I still feel motion, hear metal wheels on iron rails, so I am not there yet.

Many, many Christians down through time have been fed through the wisdom of the book of John. It was my father's favorite book. Authorship will not change that for me.
 
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PricelessPearl said:
Hi there, my background would be that I underwent it. Interestingly enough, when going through what was a horrific and terrifying experience, the right people would appear in my life to give me a message or a book came to me. One book was, Shamanism and Psychology of CG Jung. Other books were Dark Night of the Soul by St John of the Cross and the Path to No-Self written by a nun who had the experience in her late teens (if I remember correctly).
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I've read two of those, the Dark Night and the Path to No Self. The Jung book sounds good too though. Might have read some of it at some point but can't remember.
 
stranger said:
..Many, many Christians down through time have been fed through the wisdom of the book of John. It was my father's favorite book. Authorship will not change that for me.
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There is truth in the Gospel of John.
I love Jesus, and not "a logos".
 
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