Evolution is Unscientific

[wil]

Hence different religious traditions interpret the data of revelation differently, whereas the different academic disciplines generally agree with each other when discussing their respective disciplines.

So...if interstellar travel is prohibited because of radiation, what about interdimensional travel?

There are angelic beings able to move between worlds and dimensions, imo

We always reference things to what we know.

angelic interdimensional beings.

Our individual perspectives are so formed that our entire view is warped by our past experiences.

While the introduction of new information may be phenomenal...it is still accepted or rejected not by facts or science but by our perspective based on past experiences.

(think Boris and Trump.....both sides positive they are right (or left, lol)

You don't get biologists (for example) going to war with physicists (for example).

I have watched folks fight over our systems being electrical vs chemical vs biological....but those were PhDs arguing semantics (surely we never see that with religionists) (and that doctoral level discussion I can't even understand their humor)

A little nonsense, now and then, is relished by the wisest men. -Roald Dahl

Thank G!d

 

[muhammad_isa]

OK, but if we're going to add to the sum of human knowledge, then academic disciplines are a benefit and a necessity.

Yes .. knowledge of all types is a blessing .. unless we use it against ourselves, as we often do.

The conclusions..

..and that's where the problem lies, imo.
It's the same with statistics. It is often possible to manipulate the figures into seeming that they support
something when they don't.
A simple common misapprehension can occur form the use of the word "average" for example.
Is it referring to the mean, median or mode?

You don't get biologists (for example) going to war with physicists (for example).

I'm not sure about that. That is the problem with specialisation.
As the two fields overlap, one might have a good grasp of their field,
but a poor grasp of the other eg. time & space or paleontology

 

[juantoo3]

Numbers don't lie...but you *can* lie with numbers. "The average family will pay less *and* keep their doctor!"

 

[Aupmanyav]

But life was bacterial for the first 1.5 billion years. The 'quantum leap' from prokaryote to eukaryote is an interesting story.

Yeah, interesting stories everywhere. Some things take time, some happen (seemingly) instantaneously - Supernova. Time is not a fixed entity, it depends on the observer.

 

[Aupmanyav]

But we are led to believe that scientists are able to tell us exactly what happened over these "billions of years" ?
We can't even agree what happened over the last 2000 years
There are too many assumptions. The whole science of physics is based on assumptions.
i.e. definitions of "time" and "distance", for example. That's all they are .. man-made definitions.
People can assume that "time rules, OK" .. but I say that "God rules, OK"

For some things, there is evidence, in science as well as in history. For other things there may be no evidence.
There is no assumption in science. It clearly mentions what it does not know.
There are various scenarios. It may have happened instantaneously or it may have been happening all the time (multiverse).
Since 1905 we know that time, length, weight, distance, all are relative and not fixed quantities.
Yeah, I agree - "God rules" is another assumption. There is no evidence for that.

 

[juantoo3]

Which makes it pretty stupid to use in Sunday school for.kids or new.converts...

Hey let's.stsrt.out with big lies.and warped.images.amd.mistruths you may spend decades.faiking to erase.

Just like Santa Claus...

 

[Aupmanyav]

Thoughtful people may grasp the symbolism, but less learned people may be (are!) apt to take the symbol at face value and cease more in-depth pursuits.

We do not have problems with idols. They are good for less learned people, otherwise there will be nothing for them. We do not discourage them from going into the depth. To approach them and let them understand, we have many other ways - religious poetry, dramas, etc.

Teejan Bai, Pandavani exponent

Kathakkali

Padh, Rajasthan

 

[juantoo3]

Just one curious example how a religious expression can evolve in two places half a world away from each other

 

[juantoo3]

"Punctuated Equilibrium" ... Clearly I am waxing poetic, but there were explosions of species and sub-species, and those who were better suited to their environmental niche went on, those who could not perished.

I saw this ... I wondered if there was a correlation between large-scale global events, like an asteroid near-miss (or hit?) Something nearly cataclysmic that might trigger a sudden bout of change ... but it seems the theory suggests that small, isolated groups go through rapid development while the rest carry on as normal, so that would suggest not?

I did a little reading this afternoon (https://www.digitalatlasofancientlife.org/learn/evolution/punctuated-equilibrium-and-stasis/) and it turns out the answer is no...and yes.

The cause isn't clearly stated, but what is stated is that some cause isolates a sub-section of a population, and once isolated that subpopulation rapidly (sometimes within a human lifetime, per the article) adapts to the new situation. Now, while it isn't stated, in my mind until that subpopulation can no longer interbreed with the parent population, it hasn't speciated *yet.* But according to the article speciation can occur between 5K and 50K years which is very fast compared to what we are usually taught. This was noted because so many species in the fossil record remained effectively unchanged (other than minor variants to be expected in any population) for tens of millions of years.

Eldredge and Gould cogently argued that stasis was an important evolutionary phenomenon that had previously largely been ignored by the scientific community.

-emphasis mine, -jt3

In other words, if a species is sufficiently successful and has no drastic situation to adapt to or overcome, it stays the same...potentially for many millions of years (I've pointed to the Crocodillian family and the Turtle/Tortoise family in the past, Sharks as well other than size). But if a subpopulation becomes isolated and/or faces some drastic environmental change, then it will adapt...but until there is environmental stimulus there is no incentive or inducement to change.

An important point to recognize in the punctuated equilibria framework is that the evolution of the daughter species from the parent species does not imply that the parent species goes extinct. This is implied, however, by any model of anagenesis (Darwin's treadmill -jt3), including phyletic gradualism.

Another article I found (https://www.washingtonpost.com/outl...119d66-68ce-11e7-9928-22d00a47778f_story.html) about Jonathan B. Losos and his book Improbable Destinies expands on this a bit. Some tout this as arguing against Gould and Eldredge, and then come around to suggest it actually supports Gould and Eldredge.

As Losos reminds us, natural selection, lacking foresight, “won’t favor a detrimental feature just because it is an early step on a path leading to an ultimately superior condition.”

This comment struck me, because this is an argument I've made in times past. Nevermind "transitional" adaptations being missing from the fossil record for a moment, if a creature were midstream in transition, and that transition created any form of handicap, then that creature would become a meal for a predator or would be dismissed as a mate...either way would end the transition before it began in earnest.

It may take many generations for evolutionary unpredictabilities to show up, then. Both random and highly (though not completely) determined paths occur

Between both Gould/Eldredge and Losos, I think Darwin is, if not refuted, certainly amended. Grade school teaching (which remains well into adulthood and advanced Collegiate degrees unless specific to Biology) is that evolution is a gradual, one speed treadmill. Gould/Eldredge were able to demonstrate that isn't the case; across hundreds of millions of years worth of fossils, the straight line transitions are exceeding rare to the point of effectively not existing. But when a population is faced with an environmental challenge, then it either adapts or dies.

But then Losos interjects with this:

Evolution can be rapid and, to some notable degree, predictable.

-and-

It may take many generations for evolutionary unpredictabilities to show up, then. Both random and highly (though not completely) determined paths occur

So while there are similar adaptation strategies among similar animals, and for the most part those appear to be the adaptations that prevail, there are occasional flukes that pop up out of nowhere.

 

[RJM]

I did a little reading this afternoon (https://www.digitalatlasofancientlife.org/learn/evolution/punctuated-equilibrium-and-stasis/) and it turns out the answer is no...and yes.

The cause isn't clearly stated, but what is stated is that some cause isolates a sub-section of a population, and once isolated that subpopulation rapidly (sometimes within a human lifetime, per the article) adapts to the new situation. Now, while it isn't stated, in my mind until that subpopulation can no longer interbreed with the parent population, it hasn't speciated *yet.* But according to the article speciation can occur between 5K and 50K years which is very fast compared to what we are usually taught. This was noted because so many species in the fossil record remained effectively unchanged (other than minor variants to be expected in any population) for tens of millions of years.

-emphasis mine, -jt3

In other words, if a species is sufficiently successful and has no drastic situation to adapt to or overcome, it stays the same...potentially for many millions of years (I've pointed to the Crocodillian family and the Turtle/Tortoise family in the past, Sharks as well other than size). But if a subpopulation becomes isolated and/or faces some drastic environmental change, then it will adapt...but until there is environmental stimulus there is no incentive or inducement to change.



Another article I found (https://www.washingtonpost.com/outl...119d66-68ce-11e7-9928-22d00a47778f_story.html) about Jonathan B. Losos and his book Improbable Destinies expands on this a bit. Some tout this as arguing against Gould and Eldredge, and then come around to suggest it actually supports Gould and Eldredge.


This comment struck me, because this is an argument I've made in times past. Nevermind "transitional" adaptations being missing from the fossil record for a moment, if a creature were midstream in transition, and that transition created any form of handicap, then that creature would become a meal for a predator or would be dismissed as a mate...either way would end the transition before it began in earnest.


Between both Gould/Eldredge and Losos, I think Darwin is, if not refuted, certainly amended. Grade school teaching (which remains well into adulthood and advanced Collegiate degrees unless specific to Biology) is that evolution is a gradual, one speed treadmill. Gould/Eldredge were able to demonstrate that isn't the case; across hundreds of millions of years worth of fossils, the straight line transitions are exceeding rare to the point of effectively not existing. But when a population is faced with an environmental challenge, then it either adapts or dies.

But then Losos interjects with this:

-and-

So while there are similar adaptation strategies among similar animals, and for the most part those appear to be the adaptations that prevail, there are occasional flukes that pop up out of nowhere.

Makes sense

 

[juantoo3]

I learned today that a favorite scholar passed away last year:

Glenn Morton
1950-2020
Glenn Robert Morton went to be with his Lord on August 5, 2020 with his wife and sons by his side. He is survived by the love of his life, Debra Saied Morton, who he married on December 19, 1971, and he will be sadly missed by his three sons, daughters-in-law, and eight grandchildren. His family was always his priority.
Glenn was born on April 16, 1950. After a childhood in Oklahoma and attending Oklahoma University, he had an illustrious career in the oil business and explored an incredible number of interests outside of his career.
Glenn was diagnosed with a severe form of prostate cancer in 2003, which ultimately was the cause of his passing. He trusted Jesus in college and until the day he died, exemplifying how a Christian should leave this planet as a model to those who survived him.

I've quoted Mr Morton on more than one occasion, as much as 15 years ago here on this site. He was able to bring both science and faith together in a way that made sense. I didn't agree with everything, but I can say without reservation he made me think.

To that end, I wish to post one of his thought experiment essays, as I think it is germane to this thread.

Morton's Demon:

" Maxwell suggested a famous demon which could violate the laws of thermodynamics. The demon, sitting between two rooms, controls a gate between the two rooms. When the demon sees a speedy molecule coming his way (from room A), he opens the gate and lets the speedy molecule leave the room and when he sees a slow molecule coming at the gate (from room A), he holds it closed. Oppositely, when he sees a speedy molecule coming at the gate from room B he closes the gate but when he sees a slow molecule from room B coming toward the gate he opens it. In this way, the demon segregates the fast moving molecules into one room from the slow ones in the other. Since temperature of a gas is related to the velocity of the molecules, the demon would increase the temperature of room B and cool room A without any expenditure of energy. And since a temperature difference can be used to create useful work, the demon would create a perpetual motion machine.

Maxwell's demon was shown to fail by Szilard who showed that the demon needed to use light (and expend energy) to determine a fast molecule from a slow one. This energy spent to collect information meant that the demon couldn't violate the 2nd law.

The reason I mention this is because I realized tonight that the YECs have a demon of their own. In a conversation with a YEC, I mentioned certain problems which he needed to address. Instead of addressing them, he claimed that he didn't have time to do the research. With other YECs, I have found that this is not the case (like with sds@mp3.com who refused my offer to discuss the existence of the geologic column by stating "It's on my short list of topics to pursue here. It's not up next, but perhaps before too long." Message-ID: a3bv4t$v2m$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net ) And with other YECs, they claim lack of expertise to evaluate the argument and thus won't make a judgment about the validity of the criticism. Still other YECs refuse to read things that might disagree with them.

Thus was born the realization that there is a dangerous demon on the loose. When I was a YEC, I had a demon that did similar things for me that Maxwell's demon did for thermodynamics. Morton's demon was a demon who sat at the gate of my sensory input apparatus and if and when he saw supportive evidence coming in, he opened the gate. But if he saw contradictory data coming in, he closed the gate. In this way, the demon allowed me to believe that I was right and to avoid any nasty contradictory data. Fortunately, I eventually realized that the demon was there and began to open the gate when he wasn't looking.

However, my conversations have made me aware that each YEC is a victim of my demon. Morton's demon makes it possible for a person to have his own set of private facts which others are not privy to, allowing the YEC to construct a theory which is perfectly supported by the facts which the demon lets through the gate. And since these are the only facts known to the victim, he feels in his heart that he has explained everything. Indeed, the demon makes people feel morally superior and more knowledgeable than others.

The demon makes its victim feel very comfortable as there is no contradictory data in view. The demon is better than a set of rose colored glasses. The demon's victim does not understand why everyone else doesn't fall down and accept the victim's views. After all, the world is thought to be as the victim sees it and the demon doesn't let through the gate the knowledge that others don't see the same thing. Because of this, the victim assumes that everyone else is biased, or holding those views so that they can keep their job, or, in an even more devious attack by my demon, they think that their opponents are actually demon possessed themselves or sons of Satan. This is a devious demon!

He can make people think that the geologic column doesn't exist even if one posts examples on the internet. He can make people believe that radioactive dating doesn't work even if you show them comparisons of tree rings compared to radiocarbon dating. He can make people ignore layer after layer of footprints and burrows in the geologic column (see http://www.flash.net/~mortongr/burrow.jpg ) and believe that burrowing can occur and animals can walk around unimpeded during a global flood. He can make people think that the sun is shrinking, that the stars are all within 6000 light years of the earth, or that God made pictures in that light of events which never happened. He can make people believe that fossils aren't the remains of animals and are 'petrifactions' placed there by the devil. He can make people ignore modern measurements of continental motion, stellar formation, or biological speciation. He can make people believe that 75,000 feet of sediment over an area 200 by 100 miles can be deposited in a few hundred years, and he can make people believe that Noah trained animals to poop into buckets on command. He can make people deny transitional forms which have traits clearly halfway between two groups. This is a dangerous demon.

But one thing that those unaffected by this demon don't understand is that the victim is not lying about the data. The demon only lets his victim see what the demon wants him to see and thus the victim, whose sensory input is horribly askew, feels that he is totally honest about the data. The victim doesn't know that he is the host to an evil parasite and indeed many of their opponents don't know that as well since the demon is smart enough to be too small to be seen.

But unlike Maxwell's demon, Morton's demon doesn't expend any energy--he gets his victim to expend it for him. He can get his victim to expend massive amounts of intellectual energy figuring out how to convince the world that they are wrong. The victim will spend hours reading supportive books or searching through scientific literature noting only those portions which support the YEC position. And the victim will spend lots of energy trying to convince others to come see things the way they do. Thus, the demon gets its victims to spend energy to help it spread the infection.

The demon drives his victim to go to YEC conventions so that the demon can rest. By making his victim be with those equally afflicted, the demon doesn't have to shut the door or even be watchful. This is because it allows the demon time to rest when all that is in the room is supportive data. For the victim, there is comfort in numbers even if they are few.

Those who try to help the poor victims escape the ravages of Morton's demon wear themselves out typing e-mails explaining data and facts which never get through the demon's gate. After years of weariness, the philanthropic individual dies of fatigue. This is oh so devilish a situation!"

ref: The Talk.Origins Archive Post of the Month: February 2002 (talkorigins.org)

 

[Cino]

In a conversation with a YEC

What is a YEC?

(I was on usenet, but did not read talk.origins)

 

[juantoo3]

I had a feeling that might come up.

YEC = Young Earth Creationist, basically folks who argue the Earth is 6K to 10K years old, max.

But frankly I have seen a number of "frames of reference" that can easily be substituted for "YEC" and the discussion would still apply. "Morton's Demon" applies to a lot more than simply the evolution vs creation debate.

 

[Cino]

Thanks, good analogy.

Evidently Morton's demon also makes YECs seek out scientific conventions to preach young earth creationism.

I can definitely relate to the weariness aspect.

Incidentally, my understanding of the behavior of demons (the dualistic ones) is that they offer solutions to the problems they create, entering into a co-dependent relationship of sorts with their victims, who turn to them for help with said problems.

 

[juantoo3]

Incidentally, my understanding of the behavior of demons (the dualistic ones) is that they offer solutions to the problems they create, entering into a co-dependent relationship of sorts with their victims, who turn to them for help with said problems.

...which further compounds the problem, all the while the victim is blissfully unaware...

 

[Thomas]

Er ... anyone, er, know of, um ... an exorcist, who lives near me? asking for a friend, you understand ...

 

[stranger]

Juan, your model is one of the most brilliant I have seen so far. Hopefully I can comment more a little later. Work calls but I will be back later, God willing. One thing I sense here is some urgency? Things to do, time short, contingency plans... perhaps there but not doing so well? I'm in no hurry myself. All that is certain is that I will die at some point. The circumstances are not too important for me, except that I would like to find a place to die alone, without being used.

Thomas I sense a chink in your armor. I won't hurt you (much) but some might want to. You have to understand the pain of being played by gods who play God.

To others: Please don't confuse demons with protectors. There are protectors you can't overcome by force, as able as you might think you are. Protectors (who are not fallen) will relent only when they see the situation is of God. Otherwise they protect to the end. What am I saying? They relent when they see love, and only God can bring the high love. Everything else is just a short term counterfeit. Sure, it has a purpose, but it also has an end once that purpose is fulfilled. The high love has no end.

Models are interesting. They can be flipped. Suppose the creator of the model is projecting their own inner landscape without even knowing it, or suppose they are seeking back resonance. Withhold? Give them what they are looking for? Throw in disinformation just to see what happens? -- No, that last one is not my cup of tea. If I don't have some honesty left, I have nothing, no true ground to stand on.

Might have said everything I need to say this morning. I'll see when I get home later. For now, work (actual physical work ) does call.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

This isn't directed towards the OP, who has an understanding of science that differ from mine, but to others.

It's the 30 year old, single cell, lab based experiment. The cells get increasingly efficient at multiplying in the lab setting but then evolves in an unexpected way when it starts breaking down a different set of additives.

 

[RJM]

However bacterial endobiotic speciation (even if that is what's really happening, in absence of sexual reproduction)* could continue for infinity without giving rise to eukaryotic life?

It's similar to applying electron/quanum reasoning to what happens to an actual giraffe?

* Speciation being the inability of species to interbreed

 

[juantoo3]

Juan, your model is one of the most brilliant I have seen so far. Hopefully I can comment more a little later. Work calls but I will be back later, God willing. One thing I sense here is some urgency? Things to do, time short, contingency plans... perhaps there but not doing so well? I'm in no hurry myself. All that is certain is that I will die at some point. The circumstances are not too important for me, except that I would like to find a place to die alone, without being used.

Morton's Demon is not my essay, it belongs to Glenn Morton. I just happen to agree with it. I too, travelled down that road at one time. I wish I could explain how I turned around, but it was a gradual process that I didn't fully realize at the time. Looking back, with this essay and other points along the way, I can see how I was able to overcome. And you would be correct if you assigned that to G-d, as I have always asked for His wisdom and guidance.

Thomas I sense a chink in your armor. I won't hurt you (much) but some might want to. You have to understand the pain of being played by gods who play God.

All of us have chinks in our armor, nothing surprising about that. The one who may take advantage also has *his* own chinks, and a wise person has a pretty good idea where to look...and not to abuse the privilege.

To others: Please don't confuse demons with protectors. There are protectors you can't overcome by force, as able as you might think you are. Protectors (who are not fallen) will relent only when they see the situation is of God. Otherwise they protect to the end. What am I saying? They relent when they see love, and only God can bring the high love. Everything else is just a short term counterfeit. Sure, it has a purpose, but it also has an end once that purpose is fulfilled. The high love has no end.

OK, but this goes waaaay off out of the realm of science and deeply into religion / spiritualism / faith. Not that I disagree, but we're crossing streams here (Ghostbusters reference).

Models are interesting. They can be flipped. Suppose the creator of the model is projecting their own inner landscape without even knowing it, or suppose they are seeking back resonance. Withhold? Give them what they are looking for? Throw in disinformation just to see what happens? -- No, that last one is not my cup of tea. If I don't have some honesty left, I have nothing, no true ground to stand on...

Scientific models serve a purpose. They help prove, or disprove, a postulated hypothesis. Deliberate disinformation is a tool (weapon?) of rhetoric, not science, and not rational reasoning. That's not to say science may not have garbled or inaccurate data, depending on the particular study, but over time usually the garbled data can be accounted for and worked around. And then sometimes what is seen initially as garbled data turns out to be accurate...that's how the Big Bang was discovered.