Evolution is Unscientific

wil said:
Which makes it pretty stupid to use in Sunday school for.kids or new.converts...
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Well mine, and a lot of other folks grew up with those symbols, to become valid and useful members of society.

Get rid of these symbols and the folks you rail against will just find others ...
 
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stranger said:
Yes... The letter is the surface from which we begin our spiritual quests. As experience is gathered/concentrated, one may proceed from the letter to the spirit. Because of our frail constitutions (present distress), this is the case. One must start shallow (with letter, law) and then go deeper with one's pursuits. Sincerity, immediacy, pain, intensity, brokenness, tears, joy, laughter, longing -- all come into play in this dance with the divine.

Surface melts away and depths are encountered that are beyond one's wildest dreams (much more than we could ask or think). If however, we do not eventually arrive at the heart of the matter (love), it all has been for naught (a mere child's game). We have to see it through to Paul's ("...such an one was caught up to the third heaven and saw things that are unlawful for a man to utter"). (Working from memory here, might have misquoted that just a bit.)

edit: Might have gotten a bit off-topic here, mods delete if so. I'm new at these more learned discussions but hopefully getting better. Always room for improvement.
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I'm not as eloquently poetic, but I think in great degree we see much the same thing.
 
wil said:
Which makes it pretty stupid to use in Sunday school for.kids or new.converts...

Hey let's.stsrt.out with big lies.and warped.images.amd.mistruths you may spend decades.faiking to erase.
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It's not so much that the symbols are worthless, but supposedly learned elders teaching aren't able or simply don't teach further into exploring the meaning behind the symbols. Lazy Christians take the symbols for the thing and don't get around to exploring what they represent.

Symbols are a crucial construct of rational thought. Every alphabet is composed of symbols.

Everybody has to start somewhere, but if you are still learning your ABC's when it is time to graduate, someone hasn't been doing their job.
 
juantoo3 said:
if you are still learning your ABC's when it is time to graduate, someone hasn't been doing their job
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Mostly myself, imo? How long did I believe in Santa?

Not to deny that upbringing , sexual abuse, poverty, violence, can severely affect a person's life
 
RJM Corbet said:
Not to deny that upbringing , sexual abuse, poverty, violence, can severely affect a person's life
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I'm sorry, I don't buy into that. (I had this discussion in a Sociology class)

Everyone has their demons. Everyone has their setbacks and their struggles and their shortcomings. Everyone.

The question TRULY is, "how are you going to deal with those struggles?"

I recall a biography of General Colin Powell, born and raised a typical young African American at the end of the Jim Crow era, went into the service as a buck private (correction, ROTC while in college and entered service as a 2nd Lieutenant) and ended up Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and eventually Secretary of State. His words, he "lifted himself up by his bootstraps." Had he made a run for president, I would have voted for him regardless who the opponent was.

It is a very different mindset than the surrender to one's situation that I hear all around me, like there is no other choice. That's not correct, it never was correct.

I am disabled....I am not my disability. There's a difference. So many times I have been approached, "you should just give up and let the state take care of you." (or variations on the theme) I refuse. There are things I cannot do. There are things I have to do differently than an able bodied person. But I can still do, and I CHOOSE to continue to do. I have no doubt in my mind and in my heart that I would be dead by now if I did not CHOOSE the paths I have chosen to circumvent my disabilities, to get around my disabilities, to work with and work through my disabilities.

I watched my own Mother die far too young because she created disabilities for herself and succumbed to them. That is not a life I choose to live.

Another lesson that has hit home with me, working with homeless veterans. Some of them do not want to integrate with society. For whatever mental trauma they have endured, they want no part of what most of us consider to be normal life. They are happy living on the streets, that is where they CHOOSE to be. How do you help someone who doesn't want your help?

Granted, this is not all cases, there are folks who through circumstances find themselves at a place in life they don't want to be. But you can see them, they want out, they actively participate in anything that will get them up and out of the situation they find themselves in. They are CHOOSING not to be in that situation anymore, and work towards changing that.

Life is full of comparable examples. Substitute alcohol or drugs or sex addiction or gambling problem for homelessness, or any of a long list of other human foibles. We make the choices that bring us to these places, and we choose whether to stay there or get away from it.

So a poor upbringing? Yeah, so what? I grew up without two nickels to rub together. Yet I'm still accused of white privilege? Walk a mile in my shoes and THEN tell me just how privileged my life has been, because such a statement is asinine and ignorant. I have earned every little bit I have, and in fact have been cheated out of what I have rightly earned.
 
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juantoo3 said:
I'm sorry, I don't buy into that. (I had this discussion in a Sociology class)

Everyone has their demons. Everyone has their setbacks and their struggles and their shortcomings. Everyone.

The question TRULY is, "how are you going to deal with those struggles?"

I recall a biography of General Colin Powell, born and raised a typical young African American at the end of the Jim Crow era, went into the service as a buck private and ended up Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and eventually Secretary of State. His words, he "lifted himself up by his bootstraps." Had he made a run for president, I would have voted for him regardless who the opponent was.

It is a very different mindset than the surrender to one's situation that I hear all around me, like there is no other choice. That's not correct, it never was correct.

I am disabled....I am not my disability. There's a difference. So many times I have been approached, "you should just give up and let the state take care of you." (or variations on the theme) I refuse. There are things I cannot do. There are things I have to do differently than an able bodied person. But I can still do, and I CHOOSE to continue to do. I have no doubt in my mind and in my heart that I would be dead by now if I did not CHOOSE the paths I have chosen to circumvent my disabilities, to get around my disabilities, to work with and work through my disabilities.

I watched my own Mother die far too young because she created disabilities for herself and succumbed to them. That is not a life I choose to live.

Another lesson that has hit home with me, working with homeless veterans. Some of them do not want to integrate with society. For whatever mental trauma they have endured, they want no part of what most of us consider to be normal life. They are happy living on the streets, that is where they CHOOSE to be. How do you help someone who doesn't want your help?

Granted, this is not all cases, there are folks who through circumstances find themselves at a place in life they don't want to be. But you can see them, they want out, they actively participate in anything that will get them up and out of the situation they find themselves in. They are CHOOSING not to be in that situation anymore, and work towards changing that.

Life is full of comparable examples. Substitute alcohol or drugs or sex addiction or gambling problem for homelessness, or any of a long list of other human foibles. We make the choices that bring us to these places, and we choose whether to stay there or get away from it.

So a poor upbringing? Yeah, so what? I grew up without two nickels to rub together. Yet I'm still accused of white privilege? Walk a mile in my shoes and THEN tell me just how privileged my life has been, because such a statement is asinine and ignorant. I have earned every little bit I have, and in fact have been cheated out of what I have rightly earned.
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All RESPECT
 
I'm sure God responds to honest, reasonable prayer. It may take a bit longer than expected, and may not come quite in the form that was expected, but "There will be an answer Let It be"
Imo
 
Because I have free will, and so I need to ask and actually invite the intervention of your angels, which otherwise may watch and weep, and yet stand powerless without my own permission upon your divine power for intervention ...
 
RJM Corbet said:
Not to deny that upbringing , sexual abuse, poverty, violence, can severely affect a person's life
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juantoo3 said:
I'm sorry, I don't buy into that. (I had this discussion in a Sociology class)

Everyone has their demons. Everyone has their setbacks and their struggles and their shortcomings. Everyone
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It is all very well having a discussion, but I can assure you that Childhood trauma does play a major part in the remainder of some children's lives and for many children it is life changing, life debilitating consequences.

Regards Tony
 
Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
It is all very well having a discussion, but I can assure you that Childhood trauma does play a major part in the remainder of some children's lives and for many children it is life changing, life debilitating consequences.

Regards Tony
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Pleased to meet you, Tony. It is nice to know there is a human being with independent thoughts behind the user name. I mean that in sincerity, this is the first response I have seen from you that wasn't pre-canned. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it isn't my cup of tea.

I don't deny what you say here, but trauma can happen to anyone, at anytime, and practically by definition it incurs a life altering event. That misses my specific point.

First, there are too many variables for a "one size fits all" answer. Having said that, I have witnessed too many instances of inordinate coddling, even enabling behavior, from a caretaker that only serves to prolong the agony. I've had my traumas, I still bear the scars to prove it. But if I surrendered to any of those traumas and allowed them to rule my life, I would have no life. I will agree it *can* be more difficult as a child, without coping mechanisms and with enabling caretaker(s), but in my mind that is no excuse. The fault clearly is not the child, the fault is the caretaker that declined to aid the child in overcoming the trauma. There are a number of psychological reasons why, but it basically boils down to not being properly trained or suited to the task, and unwilling to seek professional assistance. The child is also more malleable, more flexible, and more capable of overcoming - *if* allowed to do so.

Clearly I would not encourage exposing any child to any trauma, as a parent it is a duty to prevent that as much as possible. However, Life Happens. Parents cannot control every moment of every day. Some things are out of our hands, and we must find a way to cope with the circumstances rather than surrender to them.
 
juantoo3 said:
First, there are too many variables for a "one size fits all" answer. Having said that, I have witnessed too many instances of inordinate coddling, even enabling behavior, from a caretaker that only serves to prolong the agony. I've had my traumas, I still bear the scars to prove it. But if I surrendered to any of those traumas and allowed them to rule my life, I would have no life. I will agree it *can* be more difficult as a child, without coping mechanisms and with enabling caretaker(s), but in my mind that is no excuse. The fault clearly is not the child, the fault is the caretaker that declined to aid the child in overcoming the trauma. There are a number of psychological reasons why, but it basically boils down to not being properly trained or suited to the task, and unwilling to seek professional assistance. The child is also more malleable, more flexible, and more capable of overcoming - *if* allowed to do so.

Clearly I would not encourage exposing any child to any trauma, as a parent it is a duty to prevent that as much as possible. However, Life Happens. Parents cannot control every moment of every day. Some things are out of our hands, and we must find a way to cope with the circumstances rather than surrender to them.
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Juan, your approach here shows a great deal of courage, I actually like this. We all have been dealt a hand of cards, at some point we have to make a decision to play or not to play. Some don't and I perfectly understand this position. I could never judge a case of suicide, or point a finger... Any finger, any judgement I make would be pointed straight back at me.

All of us find ourselves in circumstances which fall far short of ideal. To use economic privilege as an example, I have seen very wealthy people who are absolutely miserable. The ability to be content in whatever circumstances one finds themselves in is key, I think.

Also, psychologically speaking, one has no control over their upbringing or even the chemical composition of their brain. At some point, however, courage has to come into play and that person has to decide to live, to make the best of what they have, or as a favorite poem of mine puts it, one chooses to "make an Eden of that dim lake". This is a darkly beautiful thing.

In some ways this is the journey of the human being writ large. It's not necessarily a bland thing. It can be teeming with life and imagination. It will, however, always be bittersweet. Pain and joy will exist side by side, misery and ecstasy the same, love and hate, mercy and severity. I could go on, but the experience is like getting everything at once. A tour de force of life's extremes.

Parents (and really any form of authority) have a huge "X marks the spot" painted on their back. They're going to get targeted and blamed for a lot of things they don't deserve to be blamed for. But as time goes on, the recovering person will see them as also having been wounded. In some cases, the parent was just doing the best they could with the tools they had. So the recovering one can come to a place of forgiveness when they realize we're all not so different. There's really no place of privilege, we are all just people playing the hand we have been given.

So what is needed in a parent? In my opinion, just desire. The desire to do the right thing. Desire and lots of love. Commitment to go all the way with the child, not make themselves too inaccessible. It's a balancing act, not too much help, not too little. It's not about being the perfect parent, it's only about being good enough. Children are very perceptive and they know when they are being loved and when they are just being used. :( If they are being loved, they will tolerate and accept all the parent's faults, all their wounds, all their shortcomings. Once again, it seems to come to love.

I have seen brilliant and powerful people who at some point decide to embrace vulnerability along with the tremendous gifts they have. This is very moving to me, the vulnerability right along side the brilliance. This only makes that person more loveable imo. I say, don't be afraid to show your vulnerability when the time comes, you will be accepted and loved all the more because of it.

I've looked back and realized I just wrote a long post. It wasn't my intention. The last thing I wanted to do was be like an author who sits back and cranks out a snoozer from time to time. :) I'm also glad SufiPhilosophy is not here to see this, I would most certainly be dining on crow tonight. :(
 
Just a word on menus. What a load of crap! If ai am hungry, I eat what's available. What was available today? A cheap salad from Walmart! Fttt! menus. Menus are a control measure which should have their socks blown off by reality. Enough letter. Take off the collective head of control and take a collective toilet break down its neck! I chose nothing. I was born, this is what I am.

(modsters, please yelp, stop monster, beginning to be unable to see friend from foe... fo fee, fo fum, AI smell the blood of an English mon.) :(
 
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stranger said:
Just a word on menus. What a load of crap! If ai am hungry, I eat what's available. What was available today? A cheap salad from Walmart! Fttt! menus. Menus are a control measure which should have their socks blown off by reality. Enough letter. Take off the collective head of control and take a collective toilet break down its neck! I chose nothing. I was born, this is what I am.

(modsters, please yelp, stop monster, beginning to be unable to see friend from foe... fo fee, fo fum, AI smell the blood of an English mon.) :(
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???
 
Yes, Rabbi, join the club for I AM also confused and have more questions than answers. :(
 
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