Why Do People Like To Talk About Their Spiritual Beliefs?

[RJM]

You have something against Islam though.
You have said so, on many occasions. eg. Muslims are violent .. Islam condemns people to hell etc.

Another untruth.

I do not condemn Islam. Anyone who reads my posts knows that. We are trying to maintain an interfaith website. Can't you try to be honest? I dispute with you as an individual poster

But only up to a point. It's useless trying to move water with a sieve.

(edited)

 

[muhammad_isa]

..it's useless as trying to move water with a sieve..

..again, tell Greta
..or those people in the Maldives who are in serious danger.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I think that this is the crux of the matter here.
You suggest that religion is a PERSONAL thing .. as if it yours.

That is not quite true though, is it.
Islam and Catholicism are the most populous religions.
They form a global community. That is not just about personal belief .. it is more.

Religion is about the welfare of individuals and the community.
Charity is very important, as you often point out.

..but you can't just throw money at climate-change and make it go away.
One needs to admit the reasons behind why it is happening. I have showed you the statistics.
I don't expect you personally to do something about it.

..but I do expect nations to do something about it.
What they are doing is not enough .. it never will be while they support a usurious system that keeps them in power.

 

[Cino]

..but I do expect nations to do something about it.

I don't think RJM is a head of state, though.

 

[RJM]

I don't think RJM is a head of state, though.

It's all down to me, lol ...
I'm the Texas ranger

 

[muhammad_isa]

I don't think RJM is a head of state, though.

No, but the Pope is

 

[RJM]

Oh how we love to hate that evil Pope

 

[muhammad_isa]

Speak for yourself.
In a 1999 speech John Paul II qualified usury as a "grave social plague".

We need such rhetoric from today's church leaders. It's important.
Rowan Williams was always getting into trouble for speaking out. Well done him.

 

[RJM]

Speak for yourself.
In a 1999 speech John Paul II qualified usury as a "grave social plague".

We need such rhetoric from today's church leaders. It's important.
Rowan Williams was always getting into trouble for speaking out. Well done him.

Oh, I stand corrected

 

[muhammad_isa]

Voting is but one of many ways to participate in democratic processes. There is also public discourse in the media; there are interest groups such as trade unions, NGOs, and so on; there are public forms of protest, rallies, etc; there is the time-honored forum of pub talk; there are neighborhood organizations, renter's organizations; there are referendums, citizen-submitted requests to lawmakers, write-in campaigns... if democracy were simply a consumer choice to be made every so many months, then I'd agree with you. I think it is much more than that, in terms of participation. We do have to take up these opportunities, of course. The rich and powerful certainly won't tell us we need to rock their boat.

OK .. so why are the majority Christian countries not speaking up about the subject of usury?
Do they not realise it is the driver of climate-change? .. or is it that they conveniently ignore it,
as they have had the privilege of being the top-players on the world stage since WWII?

These are very serious issues, and western democracy is letting us down, isn't it?

 

[Cino]

OK .. so why are the majority Christian countries not speaking up about the subject of usury?
Do they not realise it is the driver of climate-change? .. or is it that they conveniently ignore it,
as they have had the privilege of being the top-players on the world stage since WWII?

These are very serious issues, and western democracy is letting us down, isn't it?

I don't see any country speaking up about it, no oligarchy, no dictatorship, no islamic reublic, no kingdom, no people's republic.

But you yourself live in a western democracy. Why do you speak as if you were not part of one?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I don't see any country speaking up about it..

Why should they? Aren't we all hypocrites?
Isn't it the role of "church leaders" to lead in spiritual matters?

The way I see it, most people in the world today are all involved with usury, which means that we remain silent.

But you yourself live in a western democracy. Why do you speak as if you were not part of one?

I don't .. I am saying that western democracy [ majority Christian nations ] has a lot to answer for. [ the politicians ]

As of 2018, the G7 represents 58% of the global net wealth ($317 trillion)
[ Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United Kingdom and the United States ]

Do you think that it's right to continue to ignore this hypocrisy?
..but then you probably don't see it that way. You probably agree with "scholarship" and the economic "experts"

I'm often told "but there is no other way" .. "every other system is impractical".
It is nothing more than "sleight of hand" .. illusion. It is the willful manipulation of every human being on the planet.

US President Nixon abandoned the Gold Standard [ US Dollar ] in the 1970's. Since then, it's all
been downhill.

 

[muhammad_isa]

In the Middle Ages, the Catholic church condemned usury, and rightly so.
It is the oppression of your neighbour .. it contradicts the second commandment in the Bible.

In the modern world, people are so busy rejoicing in the so-called progress that mankind has made,
that they have lost sight of reality.
i.e. we have created a world that promotes inequality, war, disease, climate-change etc.

If Church leaders don't speak out, then it is to be expected that oppressed individuals will eventually employ violence
against the oppressors. Blaming Islam does not help at all. It only makes it worse.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..you reject the other Johannine writings, but accept The Book of Revelations

I thought we'd been through all this?

You keep saying this but:
The author names himself as "John", but modern scholars consider it unlikely that the author of Revelation also wrote the Gospel of John. He was a Jewish Christian prophet, probably belonging to a group of such prophets, and was accepted by the congregations to whom he addresses his letter.
- wiki -

OK ?

G7 .. hmm .. seven kings? [ Revelation 17 ]

 

[RJM]

So did the author of Revelations contradict the other Johannine writings? It's just a question?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Johannine_works#Book_of_Revelation

"The Book of Revelation does not go into several typically Johannine themes, such as light, darkness, truth, love, and "the world" in a negative sense. The eschatology of the two works are also very different. Still, the author uses the terms "Word of God" and "Lamb of God" for Jesus Christ, possibly indicating that the author had a common theological background with the author of John."

"With respect to the date and location of authorship of these writings (Gospel and Epistles), there is general agreement that all four works probably originated from the same community. That community is traditionally and plausibly either attributed to Ephesus, or Syria, circa AD 90-110.

In the case of Revelation, many modern scholars agree that it was written by a separate author, John of Patmos, c. 95 with some parts possibly dating to Nero's reign in the early 60s."

to whom he addresses his letter.

Which letter? Again just asking, since you do not link the passages you use

edited ...

 

[muhammad_isa]

So did the author of Revelations reject the other Johannine writings? It's just a question?

Who knows? Your guess is as good as mine.
It is obvious that the "audience" to whom the letter was addressed was an early Christian one.

I don't think I'm ready to go into that discussion yet again

 

[RJM]

Who knows? Your guess is as good as mine.
It is obvious that the "audience" to whom the letter was addressed was an early Christian one.
I don't think I'm ready to go into that discussion yet again

It would be better to have a link to the letter, to be able to read what it says?

But is there reason to conclude the Johannine Epistles were not addressed to an early Christian audience?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Johannine_works#Book_of_Revelation

“With respect to the date and location of authorship of these writings (Gospel and Epistles), there is general agreement that all four works probably originated from the same community. That community is traditionally and plausibly either attributed to Ephesus, or Syria, circa AD 90-110.
In the case of Revelation, many modern scholars agree that it was written by a separate author, John of Patmos, c. 95 with some parts possibly dating to Nero's reign in the early 60s.”

There seems to be general agreement they all originated around the same time -- accepting that the Gospel of John may at first have circulated around a smaller Johannine group within the wider Christian community, and so only become generally known a bit later?

"Most scholars agree that all three letters are written by the same author, although there is debate on who that author is. These three epistles are similar in terminology, style, and general situation. They are loosely associated with the Gospel of John and may result from that gospel's theology. Internal evidence as well as commentary by Papias and Polycarp suggest that the Johannine epistles originated in Asia Minor. Early references to the epistles, the organization of the church apparent in the text, and the lack of reference to persecution suggests that they were written early in the 2nd century."

So how does the point change: that you are able to accept the Book of Revelation but not the Johannine Gospel and Epistles as authentic early Christian documents?

edited ...

 

[Thomas]

No, but the Pope is

Pope Francis has spoken out against it.

But I agree with your general sentiment that no-one is doing enough.

Anyway ... if you want to continue this aspect of the debate, let's relocate it to Politics & Society, or a more fitting arena for its discussion?

 

[muhammad_isa]

There seems to be general agreement they all originated around the same time..

So what? Book of Revelation mirrors Jewish eschatology meaning it originated from a "Jewish Christian", commonly
known as John of Patmos.

So how does the point change: that you are able to accept the Book of Revelation but not the Johannine Gospel and Epistles as authentic early Christian documents?

Nothing is known for certain. There are various hypotheses. I cannot accept the Gospel of John as being representative
of the truth about Jesus. It is written by an unknown author / community, and its content teaches more about the beliefs
of the author than of Jesus.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Pope Francis has spoken out against it.

But I agree with your general sentiment that no-one is doing enough.

Thankyou .. and noted. I would like to see the Pope / other major Christian leaders address this issue
publicly, as it deserves. It is an extremely important issue as we heading for an apocalypse.