Why Do People Like To Talk About Their Spiritual Beliefs?

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I don't. I see unity can only be achieved by a direct intervention from Almighty God.
The two largest religious groups are opposed to each other i.e. Catholic and Muslim

I see that has happened.

So not holding back with this comment. History has shown tha men in power in Iran in the mid 1800's , who think they had control over God's Faith, tried to get rid of that Message. They still try, yet no matter how much they persecuted the Baha'i in Iran and still persecute them, they hold to that Word and one and all feed the change the world is experiencing and going through.

No matter how much they show hate to the Baha'i, we will only Love.

See, no holding back, the sword turned into plowshares.

Regards Tony

 

[muhammad_isa]

But which religion gets to impose their values?

That's the whole point..
Who imposed their values in the time of Noah?

..but this time round, there won't be a flood.
Would you expect Almighty God to "step in" if He knew there was going to be a cataclysmic nuclear disaster?
..or would you expect Him to do nothing?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I see that has happened..

I know you do .. but does that stop Jesus returning some time in the near future?

No matter how much they show hate to the Baha'i, we will only Love..

Love what? Love the work of the devil? Love the many evils that have spread around the world causing so much misery?
I don't think you can sort out the mess we are all in any more than I can.

 

[RJM]

Would you expect Almighty God to "step in" if He knew there was going to be a cataclysmic nuclear disaster?
..or would you expect Him to do nothing?

I wouldn't know what God would do.

Prior to that, most early Christians believed in the return of Christ.
It is not surprising that the Catholic church denies the existence of an antiChrist.

Why do you say the Catholic Church denies the existence of the antiChrist, and that modern Christians do not expect the return of Christ?

Does wiki say the Catholic Church denies the existence of the antiChrist, and the second coming of Christ?

"From the Fifth Council of the Lateran, the Catholic Church teaches that priests may not "preach or declare a fixed time for...the coming of antichrist..." The church also teaches that it must undergo trials before the Second Coming (Second Coming), and that the church's ultimate trial will be the mystery of iniquity. In Judaism, iniquity is a sin done out of moral failing. The mystery of iniquity, according to the church, will be a religious deception: Christians receiving alleged solutions to their problems at the cost of apostasy. The supreme religious deception, according to the church, will be the Antichrist's messianism: mankind glorifying himself rather than God and Jesus. The church teaches that this supreme deception is committed by people who claim to fulfill Israel's messianic hopes, such as millenarianism and secular messianicism."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antichrist#Roman_Catholicism

 

[stranger]

Who decides? If someone breaks the law, they face the law. Freedom is the adult responsibility to make personal choices, right or wrong, and learn from them?

Hi RJM, I believe there is a general freedom (free will) with mankind, but it is limited. He's like a hamster in a cage, he can choose to get a drink of water, he can walk around a bit, he can exercise on his wheel; if there are other hamsters there, perhaps he can even find a mate. This is like general free will. The hamster has choices, but he's still in a cage.

Then there's the freedom that Love gives. That's when we realize there is a whole world out there beyond our cage. To follow the commandments of Love becomes not a chore but a delight... It's knowing we are Loved and cared for no matter what Love asks us to do. And the confidence that because it comes directly from God, it will never lead us wrong.

But which religion gets to impose their values? Christ never tried to change the world. "To Ceasar what belongs to Caesar, and to God what belongs to God"

The world will always be a testing ground for the soul. Perhaps that's how it's meant to be?

IMO, yes, for now. But that testing ground has a time limit, it will not always be so. Also, with the individual person/spirit, there comes a time when the testing is over and the person moves up a step on the ladder, away from the testing ground. At the level of the testing ground, the variegated forms of religion oppose one another (tower of babel) and this is a mercy at that level. Mankind united at that level would be capable of monstrous harm.

What is needed with spiritual growth is for the feet to be set on new ground where true unity is possible. (I do not understand the words that just came out of my mouth. )

 

[stranger]

That's the whole point..
Who imposed their values in the time of Noah?

..but this time round, there won't be a flood.
Would you expect Almighty God to "step in" if He knew there was going to be a cataclysmic nuclear disaster?
..or would you expect Him to do nothing?

Just my opinion... I would expect behind the scenes arrangements would be made all over the place for a better future beyond the disaster.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I know you do .. but does that stop Jesus returning some time in the near future?

Not for another 1000 years now.

The promise Jesus made has been fulfilled.

Not much more to say now, that is as direct as one can be.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I don't think you can sort out the mess we are all in any more than I can.

Luckily God's will is God's Will and God's Will is being done.

I see the answer to the mess is clearly recorded.

Of course, God does not force any of us to consider that they are the answers.

Regards Tony

 

[stranger]

One broken link, the whole chain fails. That is the issue? All effort has to go to defend the individual links. A single brick, the house comes down?

Understood... Can a house with all it's individual bricks be loved? My heart tells me very strongly that it can.

 

[stranger]

There is a place on the ground that is not on the map. Reality is wrong?

I wish I understood this better, I'd like to. "Here be dragons?" I don't know, sigh. Uncharted territory?

 

[RJM]

I wish I understood this better, I'd like to. "Here be dragons?" I don't know, sigh. Uncharted territory?

No. I'm saying that a belief system that relies upon the unerring accuracy of its scripture/dogma encounters problems when something comes around that is not in the scripture, or directly contrary to it. Especially in the age of modern science. For instance if my scripture requires me to accept the physical reality of Adam and Eve, or something similar, what happens if it is shown not to be true. Do I continue to believe the map and ignore the reality on the ground?

 

[stranger]

For one, because not all of us have exactly one god.

How about, we all unite under the principle of religious tolerance? I honestly believe this would be slightly more likely to lead to good results than enforcing monotheism.

Hi Cino, long time since I have talked with you. I like to rattle the cage of authority from time to time (moderator capacity) but hope I have not been too offensive.

The non-militant atheist position is in my opinion one the most remote and lonely positions available to us human beings. They are hit and looked down on from every religion. Don't take this the wrong way, friend. You have held up well, you have been noble and you have been fair. What troubles me is, have you been loved also? Because I wouldn't like it if anyone was excluded from that.

(I only say this because I know that love is what frees us all, no matter what position we hold.)

 

[stranger]

No. I'm saying that a belief system that relies upon the unerring accuracy of its scripture/dogma encounters problems when something comes around that is not in the scripture, or directly contrary to it. Especially in the age of modern science. For instance if my scripture requires me to accept the physical reality of Adam and Eve, or something similar, what happens if it is shown not to be true. Do I continue to believe the map and ignore the reality on the ground?

You have to look behind the letter at the spiritual truth it is trying to convey? You change, adapt, put away the literal interp which has been proved to be wrong, but don't abandon the spiritual truth which it veils?

However, that would be a slippery slope if one is not guided by Love. It's really the only thing I can trust these days. It's of God, and the knee touches not the ground for another.

 

[Cino]

..sounds alright in theory, but in practice, not so much.
I remember some fraudlent cults in the 60's 70's that needed police action, for example

It depends what the beliefs actually are, surely?

Fraud and other criminal offenses must be prosecuted, regardless of the personal beliefs of the offender. I do not see a requirement to unite under a common religious belief for legislative and executive functioning of a state.

That's why I think separation of "church" (or equivalent religious body) and state is an essential part of religious tolerance. Otherwise, some faith's tenets tend to gain special protection status, while other faiths get second class treatment. For example, in my country of Germany, there are state-sponsored church bodies, who get to influence school curricula, have taxes collected by the state on their behalf, get to dominate parts of the health sector to the exclusion of secular organizations, and so on. If "church" and state are not kept strictly separate, laws will get passed which discriminate against some religions, such as the bans against Shechita and Halal slaughter of mammals, minarets (but not steeples), and certain types of head scarf in Switzerland, or the German bans against Shechita and Halal slaughter (with exemptions, granted after court battles) and the ban against circumcision which is specifically anti-Muslim, since circumcision is allowed in the first 6 months of an infant's life. And these are all monotheist religions! The situation is no better in Buddhist countries like Burma or Sri Lanka (where Muslim and Hindu religions are disadvantaged), or India or Japan, each with religious agendas enmeshed with political offices.

Judging from these and other examples, current and historical, where religious bodies are enmeshed with the civil state, the attempts at politically uniting people under a specific religious banner all lead to worse circumstances than when personal belief and civic offices are kept strictly separate.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I wouldn't know what God would do.
Why do you say the Catholic Church denies the existence of the antiChrist, and that modern Christians do not expect the return of Christ?

Does wiki say the Catholic Church denies the existence of the antiChrist, and the second coming of Christ?

"From the Fifth Council of the Lateran, the Catholic Church teaches that priests may not "preach or declare a fixed time for...the coming of antichrist..." The church also teaches that it must undergo trials before the Second Coming (Second Coming), and that the church's ultimate trial will be the mystery of iniquity. In Judaism, iniquity is a sin done out of moral failing. The mystery of iniquity, according to the church, will be a religious deception: Christians receiving alleged solutions to their problems at the cost of apostasy. The supreme religious deception, according to the church, will be the Antichrist's messianism: mankind glorifying himself rather than God and Jesus. The church teaches that this supreme deception is committed by people who claim to fulfill Israel's messianic hopes, such as millenarianism and secular messianicism."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antichrist#Roman_Catholicism

Yes, I see your point. The church doesn't deny the anti-Christ as such, but they deny Jesus having any role to play
in its destruction.

"The idea of Jesus returning to this earth as a king is a heretical concept to the Church, equated to "the expectations of the Jews who wanted the Messiah to be an earthly King." The Church instead teaches that which it has taught since the beginning"

I've never observed any former Prophet / Messiah that Almighty God has sent us, that waves a magic wand, and evil
ceases to exist
I don't believe that at all .. rather far-fetched I would say.

That's not what happened the first time. Jesus got strung a cross.
..or are you saying he put HIMSELF there?

 

[Thomas]

What is religious tolerance?

There are ample examples of warm, cordial and friendly dialogue between religions going on at the very highest level... there is warmth in word and deed going on between me and my Muslim next-door neighbours ... there is the family up the road that dressed my daughter in traditional clothes and took her along to a festival at their Hindu temple ... there was the banter between me and the atheist chef at our work's kitchen, who would always try and persuade me to try his burgers on a Friday ... there are ample examples in discussions here.

 

[Thomas]

OK .. so how can mankind unite under that?
..by definition, there is no unity.

There is a unity that transcends difference

 

[muhammad_isa]

Just my opinion... I would expect behind the scenes arrangements would be made all over the place for a better future beyond the disaster.

What does that mean? "behind the scenes arrangements?
You make it sound like a theatre

 

[Cino]

The non-militant atheist position is in my opinion one the most remote and lonely positions available to us human beings. They are hit and looked down on from every religion. Don't take this the wrong way, friend. You have held up well, you have been noble and you have been fair. What troubles me is, have you been loved also? Because I wouldn't like it if anyone was excluded from that.

Thanks, @stranger, I do know love. I am happy to report that love does not depend on the presence of any gods.

That does not mean I deny others divine love, of course.

 

[RJM]

I've never observed any former Prophet / Messiah that Almighty God has sent us, that waves a magic wand, and evil
ceases to exist
I don't believe that at all .. rather far-fetched I would say

I thought you believed in the return of Jesus? To break the cross and kill the pigs? And make sure everybody has money, then die and be buried in the grave waiting for him in Mecca?
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:2476

That's not what happened the first time. Jesus got strung a cross.
..or are you saying he put HIMSELF there?

When you start telling me what I am saying, I just get bored

You have a very insulting manner of address and a total disrespect for the mysteries of Christianity.