Why Do People Like To Talk About Their Spiritual Beliefs?

[RJM]

Nothing is known for certain. There are various hypotheses. I cannot accept the Gospel of John as being representative of the truth about Jesus.

Fair enough. You cannot accept the Gospel of John as representative of what you believe to be the truth about Jesus? Based on your own belief? That's all. No problem. Of course it means others are equally reasonably entitled to their own belief? Based on a different interpretation from your own of what little is known for certain?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Fair enough. You cannot accept the Gospel of John as representative of what you believe to be the truth about Jesus?

Most definitely. It goes against logic.

No problem. Of course it means others are equally reasonably entitled to their own belief?

People believe all sorts of things. If you would rather put your faith on some airy-fairy text
[ we've been through this before .. in the beginning etc. .. words of an unknown author ] rather than some concrete
fundamentals of what Jesus actually said, there is little left to say.

Book of Revelation agrees with the prophecies in the OT. It does not talk
about a logos or a begotten son of God etc.

 

[RJM]

goes against logic.

Against predictable human logic? Oh yes, indeed it was. Very much. So humble but so profound. It's the whole point of the Incarnation really. God works in mysterious ways.

You only have to look at how the quantum world goes against macro logic, Muhammad. But that's the way it is. Your own belief is dictated by the scripture you adhere to. It's accepted that you are entitled to your own belief. No-one around here is trying to argue you out of it.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Your own belief is dictated by the scripture you adhere to.

I'm not glued to it.
If you can show me why it is wrong, I'm willing to listen.

..but you can't. Your only offering is "mystery"

 

[Thomas]

I would like to see the Pope / other major Christian leaders address this issue
publicly, as it deserves. It is an extremely important issue as we heading for an apocalypse.

Well quite. Why stick at Christian? I think all religions should address the issue with greater vigour.

Having said that, in my experience when the pope speaks, the only thing that interests the media is something 'sensational', otherwise the message goes unreported. I'm sure that's the same for all religions.

 

[RJM]

If you can show me why it is wrong,

Adam and Eve weren't real people. Get over it. Believe what you want. I'm not looking for a teacher. End of story.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Adam and Eve weren't real people...

How come?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Well quite. Why stick at Christian?

What religions did you have in mind?
It is majority-Christian countries who uphold the financial system.

The global financial system hinges on the dollar, pound sterling and the Euro. That is what the G7 meetings are all about.
The usurious manipulation of money.

It has totally skewed the global economy, and put wealth in the hands of the few.
The hands of big multinationals etc.

 

[Thomas]

I cannot accept the Gospel of John as being representative of the truth about Jesus.

Be that as it may, it evidently was representative as far as early Christianity was concerned. It was a canonical book from the beginning. In fact it was the Book of the Apocalypse that was considered dubious by many, and it's likely that the early Christian communities always regarded the author of the Apocalypse as other than the author of the Gospel.

While the final composition is late, scholars regard elements of John John as early, earlier even than the synoptics.

In recording the travels of Jesus, the synoptics make certain topographical errors which show the authors were not familiar with the geography, whereas John is always accurate. His knowledge of Jerusalem also more reliable, and his chronology is probably more reliable too, as John's chronology solves the 'three day' issue, and seems more au fait with what was going on at the time, and his narrative of the Passion makes more sense.

There's nothing on John that contradicts the synoptics, rather from the very beginning theologians like Origen regarded it as 'the spiritual gospel' because of its insight, and its explicit statement of what is implicit in the other three.

 

[Thomas]

What religions did you have in mind?
It is majority-Christian countries who uphold the financial system.

I think it's naive to suggest that Global Financial Structures will pay any attention to what Catholicism or Christianity in general has to say.

The Arab Oil States underpin that system. Indonesia is a Muslim state and the fifth largest emitter of greenhouse gasses, and are taking no steps to curb those emissions. Same for Bangladesh and Pakistan, even though they are counted among the most polluted nations on the planet.

There's a reasonable and balanced article here on Aljazeera

 

[RabbiO]

Is everyone sure that everyone else is using the same definition of usuary?

 

[Thomas]

It goes against logic.

This is where you fall down.

1) It evidently doesn't go against logic, as 2,000 years of Christian philosophy can attest.

2) 'Logic' is a system based on a priori principles. For example, Reject the idea of God, and all religion is illogical.

There are those who find the idea that an angel showed a book to a man as illogical ...

In your own words:
People believe all sorts of things. If you would rather put your faith on some airy-fairy text ...

 

[Thomas]

..but you can't. Your only offering is "mystery"

Not quite :

"Because to you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven: but to them it is not given." (Matthew 13:11, Mark 4:11, Luke 8:10)

And Paul!? That guy never stops banging on about the mysteries made known to us in Christ!

 

[muhammad_isa]

..it evidently was representative as far as early Christianity was concerned. It was a canonical book from the beginning..

Canonical for who?
The Bible canon wasn't established until the 4th. century.
It is speculative to estimate how many people relied on that Gospel in its present form.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I think it's naive to suggest that Global Financial Structures will pay any attention to what Catholicism or Christianity in general has to say..

I tend to agree with you. Mankind only seems to learn the hard way.

The Arab Oil States underpin that system. Indonesia is a Muslim state and the fifth largest emitter of greenhouse gasses, and are taking no steps to curb those emissions. Same for Bangladesh and Pakistan, even though they are counted among the most polluted nations on the planet.

I don't disagree that the whole globe is engulfed in usurious activity. I am saying that it is due to the financial system
that has been established as result of the world order following WWII.

Mankind cannot escape "the judgement" of the second coming of Jesus, it seems.
However, that does not mean that we cannot theorise as to what is causing it.
In fact, it is our duty as sincere believers to warn others, despite people's deafness.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Not quite :

Agreed .. not quite.
It is @RJM Corbet that keeps on banging on about mystery.
He also says that Adam & Eve are fictional.
He is being blinded by science

 

[Thomas]

Canonical for who?

The Christian community.

The Bible canon wasn't established until the 4th. century.

Well it wasn't formalised until then, although an authorised listing was even later – 692 in the Orthodox Tradition, 1545 in the Roman Catholic. But the gospels were of course there from the start – the earliest named reference being Irenaeus c180AD.

It is speculative to estimate how many people relied on that Gospel in its present form.

LOL, you do like to throw doubt!

Modern scholarship now date the Gospel of John between 65 and 100AD. In 1934, a fragment of John 18 was found, dated at 125AD. Since no one believes this fragment is actually part of the original, and since it came from Egypt, it is generally conceded that it would take several decades for the Gospel of John to be circulated, copied and carried to Egypt. Generally, tradition holds that it was the last of the gospels written, but that elements of it are very early, possibly prior to the synoptics. Most scholars today believe that John wrote his gospel c.80-90AD in Ephesus.

And that's the one we got.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The Christian community.
...
And that's the one we got.

You hardly need anything else .. it's all in the Gospel of John

 

[RJM]

He also says that Adam & Eve are fictional.
He is being blinded by science

I seems more logical than being blinkered by scriptural literalism in the 21st Century. It doesn't bring the house down. But that's just me ...

 

[PricelessPearl]

The Christian community.


Well it wasn't formalised until then, although an authorised listing was even later – 692 in the Orthodox Tradition, 1545 in the Roman Catholic. But the gospels were of course there from the start – the earliest named reference being Irenaeus c180AD.


LOL, you do like to throw doubt!

Modern scholarship now date the Gospel of John between 65 and 100AD. In 1934, a fragment of John 18 was found, dated at 125AD. Since no one believes this fragment is actually part of the original, and since it came from Egypt, it is generally conceded that it would take several decades for the Gospel of John to be circulated, copied and carried to Egypt. Generally, tradition holds that it was the last of the gospels written, but that elements of it are very early, possibly prior to the synoptics. Most scholars today believe that John wrote his gospel c.80-90AD in Ephesus.

And that's the one we got.

Hi- I’ll say this then exit as type of discussion isn’t my cup of tea.

I understand John to be the spiritual gospel.

God has a four fold nature- physical, moral or ethical, mental and spiritual. The four fold theme is seen through all spiritual systems of training.

Anyhoo, John is the spiritual, where there is identification as I AM.

I am the light of the world

I am the vine

I and my father are one, etc.

So it is us that must identify as I AM. (We don’t want to identify as the branch.)

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered, and men gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Not to poo poo scholars, but I don’t believe anyone knows who wrote what and when.