Did Jesus Exist

Bart Ehrman doesn't belive either that Jesus was a sinless man of virgin birth who ascended alive to heaven -- as do Muslims. That seems a lot of trouble to go to, just to make a couple of small tweaks to Judaism.

It wasn't successful anyway. Judaism stayed as it was, until the destruction of the temple a few decades of later? I don't think Jews acknowledge Jesus as any sort of prophet? A rather pointless exercise all round ...
 
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It wasn't successful anyway. Judaism stayed as it was...

Huh?
I doubt there would have been many Christians, if Jesus hadn't been sent :)
..so 'faith' did get reformed .. but got all mixed up in the process.

Bart Ehrman doesn't belive either that Jesus was a sinless man of virgin birth

..right, change the subject, why don't you..
We have established that Jesus existed.

..then we need to consider what his message was.
..suggesting that the scholars are wrong about the nature of Jesus' mission is easy.
Perhaps you'd like to point out where Mr. Erhman goes wrong in his lecture?
 
So the Letter to the Hebrews is not accepted as authentic?
The Letter has had an interesting history.

Initially, it seems it was always anonymous, and because of that, it was not immediately accepted as canonical. Eusebius (c325) classed it as antilegomena (Gk. spoken against, or disputed). It gained acceptance primarily because of its theology.

Really it was only much later that it started to be attributed to Paul, perhaps in an attempt to provide apostolic pedigree.

As Origen observed, Hebrews "does not exhibit the characteristic roughness of speech or phraseology admitted by the Apostle [Paul] himself, the construction of the sentences is closer to the Greek usage, as anyone capable of recognising differences of style would agree. On the other hand the matter of the epistle is wonderful, and quite equal to the Apostle's acknowledged writings: the truth of this would be admitted by anyone who has read the Apostle carefully... If I were asked my personal opinion, I would say that the matter is the Apostle's but the phraseology and construction are those of someone who remembered the Apostle's teaching and wrote his own interpretation of what his master had said. So if any church regards this epistle as Paul's, it should be commended for so doing, for the primitive Church had every justification for handing it down as his. Who wrote the epistle is known to God alone: the accounts that have reached us suggest that it was either Clement, who became Bishop of Rome, or Luke, who wrote the gospel and the Acts." (This is Origen quoted by Eusebius in The History of the Church)

As for the author?

Among various contenders – Clement of Rome, Barnabas, Paul, Luke, Apollos, or his teacher Priscilla.

For no good reason I can argue, I favour the idea it was written by Priscilla, scholars date it around 64-65. Priscilla, along with her husband Aquila, were active from very early, contemporary with Paul, and instructors of Apollos. It may well be that her authorship was suppressed because she was a woman.
 
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..right, change the subject, why don't you..
We have established that Jesus existed.

..then we need to consider what his message was.
..suggesting that the scholars are wrong about the nature of Jesus' mission is easy.
Perhaps you'd like to point out where Mr. Erhman goes wrong in his lecture?
Ehrman is used here to establish that Jesus existed. In the sense of: Even Bart Ehrman accepts that. Which is the subject of the thread.

As an atheist he obviously does not support the virgin birth, miracles or the ascension of Jesus. Nor either the resurrection, of course. Or does he just forget to mention those aspects? So what parts of Jesus do you want that scholars accept, and what parts to reject?

I'm not going to watch an off-topic 90 min video of him discussing the historical Jesus for you -- unless you can tell me that he agrees with all the rest of what you believe about Jesus?

You could start a new video thread?
 
They are the 7 letters of Paul actually written by Paul? Or at least by the person named as Paul -- not written by others? Paul was the earliest writer about Jesus -- so it's important to know what he actually wrote and what he did not?
Authorship can become a bit of a 'finger and the moon' thing.

Say we have Paul's signature on every letter, so every letter is inarguably authentic. What more does that prove, in regard to the content of the letter?

We have four gospels, where the authors are unknown. So does that render them worthless?

+++

What is more telling is what the letters say; what they tell us about the sitz im leben, the zeitgeist. Now (since WWII) Christians scholars have paid more attention to Jewish scholarship, we are coming to know a lot more about Paul, about the early Christian movement, that sometimes stands in stark contrast with what we had long assumed. The those sources more familiar with Paul the person? Not really, but they are more familiar with Paul the Jew in a Jewish context, and that tells us much more about the man, and the emergence of Christianity against its background.

Having said that, scholars, pundits and whatever, today, make biographical statements about individuals which turn out to be without foundation and quite wrong. I think it was C.S. Lewis who defended the sacred scribe on the basis that he had often read of what his motives in writing this or that were, and was amazed at how far from reality those assumptions often were.

As I say: Finger and the moon.
 
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I'm not going to watch an off-topic 90 min video of him discussing the historical Jesus for you -- unless you can tell me that he agrees with all the rest of what you believe about Jesus?

You could start a new video thread?

You don't have to watch it for me ;)
Earlier in this thread you said that "I don't think anyone can argue with what he says, especially as he has no axe to grind -- not being a 'believer' himself."

In other words, you consider Erhman as being "neutral" on the subject of Jesus' existence.
Somehow, this neutrality of the historical scholars of Jesus "evaporates" when it doesn't suit you ;)

True, it is not the topic of the thread .. but I know you have an interest in the subject because you have already stated in another thread that you think that Jesus DID come to start a new religion.
If you want to remain ignorant of scholars' [ atheists and theists alike ] opinions, carry on..
You can start another thread, if you want.
 
We have four gospels, where the authors are unknown. So does that render them worthless?

No .. they are part of mankind's history. We need to analyse them, and put them into the correct historical context.
We have many documents, and we need to examine all of them.
 
Somehow, this neutrality of the historical scholars of Jesus "evaporates" when it doesn't suit you ;)
How about the virgin birth, miracles and ascension into heaven. Does the neutrality evaporate when it doesn't suit you on those points? Simple question, simple answer.

It is why I have carefully avoided going anywhere near the Muslim Vs Christian versions of Jesus. The discussion is between mythicist and Jesus actual existence -- not between the zillions of beliefs about who/what Jesus actually was?
 
That would be the logical conclusion. "along the lines of what Paul wrote about him".
I don't believe that Jesus was/is a Hellenistic Jew.
I don't think anyone suggests He was. I thought a Palestinian Jew? Or, He was from the country, not the city.

There is an argument that all Judaism after Alexander was 'Hellenistic Judaism'. The Hellenistic era began with the conquests of Alexander, and continued even under the Romans, encompassed the Byzantine era, and ended with the Islamic conquests. So more accurately its Judaism in a Hellenistic milieu.

"Hellenistic Judaism" is used to define 'Judaism in the Greek-speaking world'. Many Jews spoke Greek and adopted (to some extent) a Greek way of life, in the same way that many 'Hellenists' (ie Gentiles) admired elements of Jewish culture and adopted some Jewish customs. There were facilities in the Temple in Jerusalem for non-Jewish believers, as it were. Although many see the Maccabean revolt as opposing Hellenism, that is not certain.

More correctly is the term 'Second Temple Judaism,' from Cyrus’s conquest of Babylon to the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD.

Many of the major developments of Judaism during this time actually began in the Persian period, but they sometimes accelerated under Greek rule, and Greek rule brought its own influences and contributions to the Jewish people.
(Hellenistic Judaism, Lester L Grabbe, Emeritus Professor of Hebrew Bible and Early Judaism, University of Hull)
 
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The discussion is between mythicist and Jesus actual existence -- not between the zillions of beliefs about who/what Jesus actually was?

OK .. so you are just reminding everybody that Jesus is a real person according to historians..
Thank you for the reminder ;)
 
Although many see the Maccabean revolt as opposing Hellenism, that is not certain.
I don't think it was a revolt against Hellenism itself, just against the particular Selucid king Antiochus IV Epiphanes attempt to crush the Jewish culture and religion?
OK .. so you are just reminding everybody that Jesus is a real person according to historians..
Thank you for the reminder ;)
You are welcome
It appears to be the one thing upon which we both agree? ;)
 
If that's your level of understanding, go with it

It's not my level of understanding, it's yours apparently .. I listen to what he says.
Most of what he says, I agree with.

The job of an historical scholar is not to determine whether Jesus was divine or not..
..that would be the job of a theologian :)
 
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You tell me..
..so did Jesus, in your opinion, follow Jewish law .. or did He not?
He followed the eternal laws of Spirit -- he went beyond the books and the box and included Samaritans and everyone else
 
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