Did Jesus Exist

[muhammad_isa]

He followed the eternal laws of Spirit -- he went beyond the books and the box and included Samaritans and everyone else

..not answering the question..
Did Jesus keep the Sabbath?
Did Jesus eat pork?
Did Jesus make or take usurious loans?
Did Jesus break any Jewish laws?

The answer is "no" .. and he didn't suggest anybody broke them either.
Citing that Jesus was merciful to a repentant prostitute does not mean that the law is changed,
or it's ok to break it.
..or because Jesus said "it's not what you put into your mouth, but what comes out of it", he is
not saying it's ok to eat pork.

The trouble is, old habits die hard, and we all choose an interpretation that suits us.
God knows everything about us. One day we will meet Him.

We ALL have things that we would rather not be known, but publicly stating falsehoods about God is serious.
OK we might be sincere in our beliefs, but those who knowingly make-up things about God, or who knowingly agree with falsehood [ to gain something in this world ], will wish that they hadn't misled others on the day of judgement.

 

[RJM]

Did Jesus keep the Sabbath?

He conspicuously broke it by healing on the Sabbath, and defended his disciples nibbling corn while walking through a corn field. He argued with the religious authorities over the exact point.

Did Jesus eat pork?

It's not said. But there probably weren't many pigs running around Judea at the time?

Did Jesus make or take usurious loans?

He conspicuously had no money. He had his disciples catch a fish with a piece of money in its mouth to pay tax. 'The foxes and the birds have a home, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.' It would have been against his nature anyway, imo

Did Jesus break any Jewish laws

Apart from the Sabbath? It's not said. But the establishment killed him for not going along with the system, and encouraging others. He didn't seem to be a model example?

Have you read the gospels @muhammad_isa

EDIT
The rest of your post was added after my reply. Have you read the gospels? Also: why do you keep asking questions if you have already decided the answer?

 

[muhammad_isa]

..But the establishment killed him for not going along with the system, and encouraging others. He didn't seem to be a model example?

You are mistaken. He was INDEED a model example.
Jesus was accusing the wealthy Sanhedrin of hypocrisy.
"nibbling corn"?
I wasn't aware that one had to fast on the Sabbath.

What is the point of the Sabbath?
Not to "do business", I would have thought. [ that means we should be remembering God, and not our "pockets" ! ]

Have you read the gospels @muhammad_isa

Why do you ask such a question? Of course I have, and still do.
Can you not see that I am interested in God and Jesus? [ as well as Muhammad ]

If you don't know me by now,
You will never never know me..

 

[Thomas]

..so did Jesus, in your opinion, follow Jewish law .. or did He not?

No. He sat with harlots and wine-bibbers. He forgave sin in His own name. He transgressed the law concerning the sabbath. The Jews tried to stone Him more than once, for what they saw was blasphemy ...

... so yes, if you want to be literal, He clearly broke Jewish Law.

 

[muhammad_isa]

No. He sat with harlots and wine-bibbers. He forgave sin in His own name. He transgressed the law concerning the sabbath. The Jews tried to stone Him more than once, for what they saw was blasphemy ...

... so yes, if you want to be literal, He clearly broke Jewish Law.

Your opinion..

In the gospels,
It portrays Christ as the true interpreter of the Mosaic Law. In the Expounding of the Law, Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law or the prophets, but to fulfill them (Matthew 5:17)

I'm sure you will come up with some whacky interpretation of the above, to fit your beliefs

He transgressed the law concerning the sabbath..

No he didn't. That is what the Pharisees accused him of. Not the same thing.

The Jews tried to stone Him more than once, for what they saw was blasphemy ...

They would make any old excuse. It's the same old story. They didn't like their authority being challenged.
It's not difficult to understand. Wealth and power corrupts!

I see it time and again .. Mosque comittees disliking people who speak the truth, and
money going missing, and somebody flees to Pakistan with it.. bla bla

 

[RJM]

Ehrman is saying in the video posted by @muhammad_isa that wherever Jesus appeared to be going against Jewish law, he was really just giving his own interpretation of it, as it was argued about even between Pharisees.

It's a point. But everything Ehrman says in the video can be preceded by 'in my opinion'

If you take away the incarnation, it changes how you look at Jesus. An atheist will obviously view Jesus as a Jewish teacher of his time, and reason to that objective.

I don't view Jesus in that way. I view Jesus as the Incarnate Christ, the bridge between God and man, between Spirit and nature -- not by the dictionary definition of Messiah. So there's no possible meeting of the ways on the point. Bart is entitled to his opinion, but he and I have to agree to disagree.

However I find it difficult to see how someone can view a sinless, virgin born, miracle worker Jesus who ascended alive to heaven, as just a Jewish teacher of his time -- as @muhmmad_isa insists everybody should. It's having and eating the cake, imo

It didn't work out anyway. Why did God bother? It was at best a pretty shabby operation,? Why didn't God send an 'ordinary' prophet if just trying to tweak Judaism around a bit? It didn't change anything. Jews don't recognize Jesus as any sort of prophet, I believe?

It just had the opposite effect of sparkIng a new religion of Christianity with God as Father ...

 

[muhammad_isa]

It didn't work out anyway. Why did God bother? It was at best a pretty shabby operation,? Why didn't God send an 'ordinary' prophet if just trying to tweak Judaism around a bit?

Ah .. but God raised him to be in heaven with him ... for a while .. and the Divine plan means that the Messiah will come back and finish his role.

It didn't change anything. Jews don't recognize Jesus as any sort if prophet, I believe?

It just had the opposite effect of sparkIng a new religion of Christianity with God as Father ...

That's what happened. However, it's FAR from over.The time for Jesus' reappearance is surely getting closer.
..and Almighty God is the Best of Planners.

 

[RJM]

Ah .. but God raised him to be in heaven with him ... for a while .. and the Divine plan means that the Messiah will come back and finish his role.



That's what happened. However, it's FAR from over.The time for Jesus' reappearance is surely getting closer.
..and Almighty God is the Best of Planners.

Ok. But Ehrman isn't going to support you there, now is he?

 

[Ella S.]

I'm merely pointing out how Christianity would have no basis whatsoever if he didn't exist.

I'm Christian, but I'm also pretty apathetic to whether Jesus existed or not. If he didn't, I would still practice hesychasm and alchemy, and I would still talk about the metaphysical qualities of Christ. I'm alright with him being a figure like Hermes Trismegistus.

I think Nicene Christianity would have a problem if Jesus never existed, but that's not the only form of Christianity out there and the Nicene Creed was still controversial at the time it was made some several centuries after our earliest accounts of the Christian movement.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Ok. But Ehrman isn't going to support you there, now is he?

Maybe he will .. when Jesus returns as the Messiah, that is

 

[muhammad_isa]

..the Nicene Creed was still controversial at the time it was made some several centuries after our earliest accounts of the Christian movement.

It certainly was. The creed was established in opposition to the so-called Arians.
i.e. those that believed that Jesus was subordinate to the Father [ God ]

Some Christians would have us believe that so-called Arians were arguing about an entirely different issue,
but I don't think so.

The argument was about equality and "same essence".
Something that we don't need to know about, unless we wish to make interpretations of Jesus
sayings as an "authoritive God" starting a new religion.

 

[RJM]

God hears me, however I pray

 

[Thomas]

Your opinion..

LOL, not mine mate, read your Bible. (eg. Matthew 12:1)

Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law or the prophets, but to fulfill them (Matthew 5:17)

Oh yes, indeed! That is made clear at the Transfiguration, when Jesus is seen on the mountain, clothed in white, talking with Elias (the Prophets) and Moses (the Law). (Mark 9:1, Matthew 17:2). Everything is fulfilled in Him.

I'm sure you will come up with some whacky interpretation of the above, to fit your beliefs

I'm sure you see the above as just that.

==

They would make any old excuse. It's the same old story. They didn't like their authority being challenged. It's not difficult to understand. Wealth and power corrupts!

And you think He didn't know that, and was teaching them (and us) a lesson? It's a wise man who gets mileage out of anything.

I see it time and again ...

We see what we choose to see. We're very quick to find fault with our neighbour, not so quick to recognise our own.

Mosque comittees disliking people who speak the truth, and money going missing, and somebody flees to Pakistan with it.. bla bla

That's a shame, and I feel for you and all good Muslims everywhere. My son-in-law is a sign-language interpreter at a Mosque, and has more than once gone to the Imam and said, "I'm not happy about this, can you explain?" Sometimes it's a theological matter. Sometimes it's something else.

My mother had a gold bracelet, a family heirloom, stolen by the woman in the pew next to her at Mass on a Christmas Day morning, can you believe that? It fell from her wrist, and my mum didn't notice, but her neighbour did, and moved her handbag to conceal it (my mum thought it strange at the time, but it didn't click to later), then pocketed it when my mum went up to receive communion.

+++

You and I both have a poor opinion of the world in which we find ourselves.

For me a decline in a sense of the spiritual is a tragic loss, in the face of which I am uplifted whenever and wherever I see it, in whatever form, so I endorse and acclaim my Jewish and Muslim brethren, as I do Buddhists and Hindus and Shintoists and Daoists and Gnostics and indeed everyone who harbours that sense, whatever their philosophy.

So it saddens me that I should contend so much with you, to no good end.

I shall do so no more. If we cannot say anything good between us, best we say nothing at all.

God bless.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..If we cannot say anything good between us, best we say nothing at all..

I find it difficult to remain silent, when I see people claim things that I see are illogical.
You agree that Jesus was a Jew .. and yet you say that he didn't keep the Jewish commandments.

Now .. this could imply several things. Either the commandments, as in the OT, are not accurate, or
Jesus thought they were being interpreted in an exaggerated way, or he came to CHANGE them..

Does Jesus explicitly say that he came to change them in the Gospels? I don't think so.

 

[RJM]

How illogical for God to send a sinless man of virgin birth -- a miracle worker who forgave sin -- to make a couple of slight changes to Judaism, that didn't work and resulted in the birth of the world's major religion, instead by mistake?

Oops!

Surely Almighty God could have arranged things a bit more effectively?

 

[Thomas]

OK, as we're not contending, I'll respond to this.

I find it difficult to remain silent, when I see people claim things that I see are illogical.

That's understandable, because the Muslim paradigm rejects certain elements fundamental to the Christian paradigm. Given that, from a Christian viewpoint, it's not illogical at all.

As St Thomas says, "(we) can dispute with one who denies its principles, if only the opponent will make some concession; but if he concede nothing, it can have no dispute with him, though it can answer his objections." (In the Summa)
That rule holds true for any doctrine. Islam can answer all objections, logically, but if the opponent refuses to make any concession to the fundamental tenets of Islam, then there's little point, but that does not render the claims of Islam illogical.

You agree that Jesus was a Jew .. and yet you say that he didn't keep the Jewish commandments.

He kept to the spirit, not the letter. The letter can be interpreted, to use His example, to say you should not do good 'works' on the sabbath.

But He did things, like forgive sin, in His own name, which is clearly blasphemous if he was a prophet only. Only God can forgive sin.

Now .. this could imply several things. Either the commandments, as in the OT, are not accurate, or Jesus thought they were being interpreted in an exaggerated way, or he came to CHANGE them..
Does Jesus explicitly say that he came to change them in the Gospels? I don't think so.

No. And no-one is saying He did. Your 'Jesus thought they were being interpreted in an exaggerated way' is closer to the truth of it. I'd say they were being honoured in the letter, but not the spirit, and Jesus transgressed, according to the letter, to create the circumstance to illuminate the spirit.

 

[muhammad_isa]

How illogical for God to send a sinless man of virgin birth -- a miracle worker who forgave sin -- to make a couple of slight changes to Judaism, that didn't work and resulted in the birth of the world"s major religion, instead by mistake?

Hashem doesn't make mistakes

 

[muhammad_isa]

He kept to the spirit, not the letter. The letter can be interpreted, to use His example, to say you should not do good 'works' on the sabbath.

Exactly .. he didn't intentionally break Jewish law.

..Jesus transgressed, according to the letter, to create the circumstance to illuminate the spirit.

..not so much "create the circumstance" .. they were events that he had to deal with.
Yes .. "according to the letter" as the Pharisees [ scribes ] saw it.
The rich and privileged tend to be hypocritical .. one law for them, and one law for others.

 

[RJM]

Hashem doesn't make mistakes

Of course not. But it would certainly appear to be illogical, in the short term. So what's good for one, is good for the other also. Why is the apparent illogicality of Muslim belief less illogical than that of Christian belief, regarding Jesus's purpose?

 

[RabbiO]

Yes .. "according to the letter" as the Pharisees [ scribes ] saw it.
The rich and privileged tend to be hypocritical .. one law for them, and one law for others.

1) Scribes and Pharisees are not synonymous.
2) Scribes and Pharisees most often were not among the rich and privileged.
3) The portrait of the scribes and Pharisees given in Christian scripture is one dimensional - imo - making a letter vs. spirit argument not the black and white supposition a lot people think it is.