Cause he asked questions in Saturday school (Idk how it is referred)
Did Jesus Exist
- Thread starter RJM
- Start date
We just sitting on the couch chattin. Pull up a chair.Good grief......what is going on here??
Oh well..
If you don't want to answer my questions from post #98, maybe this will interest somebody.
This is a 10 min clip from Bart Erhman on the Origins of the Trinity
If you don't want to answer my questions from post #98, maybe this will interest somebody.
This is a 10 min clip from Bart Erhman on the Origins of the Trinity
TheEndIsNigh
Prepare Thyself....
Let's assume Jesus existed and was indeed who it’s been said He was: -
What was the plan?
1. To have him sort out the corruption in the temple and amongst the general populace?
2. To hold the people in check by renewing their faith in God? By doing miraculous stuff.
3. To convert the world to the Jewish faith?
4. To kick out the Romans for the desecration of His Temple?
5. To create a new world religion/faith in God?
----------------------------------------------
Case 1: To have him sort out the corruption in the temple and amongst the general populace?
For a short while, it appears he succeeded with this. Although, it was short-lived, ending a few days later with His death. Presumably, following that, things returned to normal.
It must be said that if this was the goal, it was a pretty low-key operation. Given all the years in the planning and three years plus of actual action which culminated in a complete and utter failure. Nothing like the scale of His usual methods for instant "correction".
I.E. The Great Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.
Case 2: To hold the people in check by renewing their faith in God? By doing miraculous stuff.
This was a more successful while it lasted. However, it seems rather than renewing the people’s faith, it antagonised them. So much so that in the end they called for His death in preference to a known felon. Plus, rather than perform miracles that would make everyone sit up and take notice, He kept them low key. Now, had Jesus done the big things, say draining the dead sea or raining fire on a city or two, I suspect there would be few who would gainsay His powers. Moses had no problem throwing his weight about with plagues and famine and those certainly had the desired effect.
Case 3: To convert the world to the Jewish faith?
Well, this just hasn’t happened. In fact, there are other religions with more followers. Again, had He gone about it with more pazazz, He could have had the world at his feet, as the devil* pointed out. As it was, the Jewish faith ignored the event, deeming it not even worthy of a mention in their records.
*It seems odd that the temptations were part of the plan. The plan had been set out years before His birth.
Case 4: To kick out the Romans for the desecration of His Temple?
This couldn’t have been the plan. Even He acknowledged the Romans' right to be there and denied any inclination in that direction. Plus, it had no effect on the Romans what-so-ever as they carried on controlling and crucifying for many years after.
Case 5. To create a new world religion/faith in God?
This seems unlikely. Had this been the plan, then surely Jerusalem, a small town on the edge of nowhere, wasn’t the place to start. Rome would have been the locale for any such attempt as showed years later by the ones that did it.
What was the plan?
1. To have him sort out the corruption in the temple and amongst the general populace?
2. To hold the people in check by renewing their faith in God? By doing miraculous stuff.
3. To convert the world to the Jewish faith?
4. To kick out the Romans for the desecration of His Temple?
5. To create a new world religion/faith in God?
----------------------------------------------
Case 1: To have him sort out the corruption in the temple and amongst the general populace?
For a short while, it appears he succeeded with this. Although, it was short-lived, ending a few days later with His death. Presumably, following that, things returned to normal.
It must be said that if this was the goal, it was a pretty low-key operation. Given all the years in the planning and three years plus of actual action which culminated in a complete and utter failure. Nothing like the scale of His usual methods for instant "correction".
I.E. The Great Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.
Case 2: To hold the people in check by renewing their faith in God? By doing miraculous stuff.
This was a more successful while it lasted. However, it seems rather than renewing the people’s faith, it antagonised them. So much so that in the end they called for His death in preference to a known felon. Plus, rather than perform miracles that would make everyone sit up and take notice, He kept them low key. Now, had Jesus done the big things, say draining the dead sea or raining fire on a city or two, I suspect there would be few who would gainsay His powers. Moses had no problem throwing his weight about with plagues and famine and those certainly had the desired effect.
Case 3: To convert the world to the Jewish faith?
Well, this just hasn’t happened. In fact, there are other religions with more followers. Again, had He gone about it with more pazazz, He could have had the world at his feet, as the devil* pointed out. As it was, the Jewish faith ignored the event, deeming it not even worthy of a mention in their records.
*It seems odd that the temptations were part of the plan. The plan had been set out years before His birth.
Case 4: To kick out the Romans for the desecration of His Temple?
This couldn’t have been the plan. Even He acknowledged the Romans' right to be there and denied any inclination in that direction. Plus, it had no effect on the Romans what-so-ever as they carried on controlling and crucifying for many years after.
Case 5. To create a new world religion/faith in God?
This seems unlikely. Had this been the plan, then surely Jerusalem, a small town on the edge of nowhere, wasn’t the place to start. Rome would have been the locale for any such attempt as showed years later by the ones that did it.
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Jesus is who he said he was .. the Messiah.
The plan of God cannot be thwarted.
Almighty God knew that Jesus would be arrested and persecuted. [ He is Omniscient ]
He decided that Jesus' mission would be suspended, well-knowing that Christianity would
take the course that it did.
Jesus will soon complete his mission, and be a uniting force for believers.
This is the decree of the Most High .. Hashem, the One, the All Knowing.
All of our souls eventually return to whence they came.
Really? Soon huh? Many Christians and Muslims, and even Jews have been thinking a Messiah will come "soon"
So far it is like the husband that just left to get bread and never returned... The apostles thought he would be right back.
Ella S.
Well-Known Member
None of the above. It was to fulfill the prophecies of the Messiah and bring a deeper understanding to the Torah, pure from the political corruptions of the time.
TheEndIsNigh
Prepare Thyself....
Ah, so He is playing the long game.
As for Him knowing about the arrest, it's a pity He did't let Jesus in on that part of the plan.
Jesus, obviously didn't get the memo, else why the need for the line.
"Why have you forsaken me"
As for completing his mission, rather than being a 'uniting force' for believers, it's fair to say that part of the plan has been well and truly kicked into the long grass.
Looking at the widening growth of new faiths and break away cults, not to mention those that just don't believe in anything, the gaps are growing at an exponential rate.
Back in the day, before all this, it's fair to say that almost 100% of the human race believed in some form of religion.
That's no longer the case and is probably rapidly falling toward 90% at the moment.
Unless that is the real plan. To finally drive it home, that after He created the world and gave dominion over it to man, we should come not to expect any further interventions or help.
TheEndIsNigh
Prepare Thyself....
Yo GOD you made a mistake...it takes a human to tell ya! Lol. Love that part.
Didnt he know? Heck you don't put out invites.and call it the Last Supper if it ain't!
You don't tell your treasurer he is gonna betray you in front of everyone in such an event.....and then kick him out after he gets the bread (material understanding of the physical Christ) and before he gets the wine (spiritual understanding)
Wondering which lines got that interpretation.
His actual existence (to me) has no bearing on the value of the words purported to be his.
Niblo
Well-Known Member
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TheEndIsNigh
Prepare Thyself....
Christianity has a lot to answer for, but in general, it's no worse than other beliefs. Sure there are wars that have been endured over it, but mankind has no problem in finding other excuses for killing their fellow man. Be it religion, greed, a wrong word here, an "are you looking at me" moment or even the colour of someones socks.
No, the worst thing that has ever happened to the world is when an ape climbed down from tree and picked up a stick to batter the brains out of his best mate.
In other words ..... Wo/Man
TheEndIsNigh
Prepare Thyself....
Ella S.
Well-Known Member
It wasn't to cleanse the temple of corruption or renew anyone's faith, or even to mass convert everyone. Please reread my post.
That is one that was always interesting to me.
Who sent the prophecies? Well the prophets... Where did they get them? From G!d.... So G!d told humans (the folks s/he picked as prophets is another whole discussion) that the messiah was coming and then sent his only begotten son to make sure everyone knew he was telling the truth?