Fluidology

[RJM]

I believe time and space belong to the corporeal plane. We can't function without them as incarnated humans, and space is a big part of the corporeal plane.

Physicists dispute the notion of time in some theories, so to speak.

Our present science views electromagnetism as a force that propagates through the time/space medium. EM cannot operate without time/space. EM moves at the speed of light. The term ‘light’ includes all forms of electromagnetism – microwaves, x-rays, radio waves, etc -- and not just visible light.

The speed of light defines the ‘border’ of space/time – at which mass and time both become infinite – as in a black-hole. EM moves as a wave. The idea of the soul as an electromagnetic monopole (photon?) outside of time/space doen't agree with 21st Century science. So this 'fluid' can't really be a form of EM by modern definition?

 

[RJM]

Why shouldn't we ask God?

The inhabitants of Nineveh did.

 

[plouton6]

I am in agreement with you here. That is 'Advaita Hinduism' (non-dualism).
I would go on to say that when thought is free from corporeal restraints; even religions, God/Gods/Goddesses, prophets/son/messenger/manifestation/mahdi loose meaning. These are corporeal things.

"tyaja dharmam adharmaṃ ca ubhe satya anṛte tyaja। ubhe satya anṛte tyaktvā yena tyajasi tat tyaja ॥"

Abandon religion and irreligion, and truth and untruth, both. After leaving both, truth and untruth, abandon that through which you abandoned these.
Sannyasa Upanishad, Chapter 2, Verse 17.

Tyaja - abandon, dharmam - religion, adharmam - irreligion, ubhe - both, satya - truth, anṛ(i)te - untruth, tyaktvā - having left, yena - by which, tyajasi - you abandoned, tat- that.

Thanks for the information. I'll read more about Advaita.

I do agree that religions and the concept of prophets belong in the corporeal plane. They serve some purposes (not necessarily all of them good) but eventually may be abandoned.

 

[plouton6]

Is the subject matter of the theories you have in mind applicable to the processes I asked about?

You can't remove a phrase from a paragraph and ask a question ignoring the sentences that come next. Removal of context distorts ideas. The text is meant to be read as a whole.

 

[plouton6]

And yet thought suggests a process, with its own time and spaces, perhaps?

I believe so. Time and space may be different concepts and behave differently in a different dimension.

I prefer to see it as The self is being. Thought is a category that belongs to certain orders of being.

Maybe thought is a quality of self-aware beings, and non-self-aware beings act by instinct.

 

[plouton6]

Welcome, @Paulus !

It's a long read, but worth it.

I'm glad it was useful.

It has many parallels with the spiritist doctrine, especially since you mention perispirit (a typical spiritist term and only used in this thread on the forum by the way).

Reading The Spirits's Book has been in my to-do list for decades, even though I did read portions of it.

I didn't see a Spiritist forum around here (okay, maybe I didn't look for it the right way), which surprises me. It's such a well-established and respected doctrine.

Why shouldn't we ask God? He is God after all.

Maybe because God has always known that something was going to happen and, were it not supposed to happen, God would not have allowed it. Our evolution is not meant to be pain-free, otherwise it's incomplete.

Kind regards.

 

[plouton6]

Thanks for the brilliant input, @RJM Corbet.

Our present science views electromagnetism as a force that propagates through the time/space medium. EM cannot operate without time/space. EM moves at the speed of light. The term ‘light’ includes all forms of electromagnetism – microwaves, x-rays, radio waves, etc -- and not just visible light.

Maybe time and space have different properties in another dimension. Is that incompatible with present science?

I was referring to the time and space concepts that we are familiar with in the corporeal plane.

The speed of light defines the ‘border’ of space/time – at which mass and time both become infinite – as in a black-hole. EM moves as a wave. The idea of the soul as an electromagnetic monopole (photon?) outside of time/space doen't agree with 21st Century science. So this 'fluid' can't really be a form of EM by modern definition?

I read some weeks or months ago that some Danish scientists have been struggling to understand the behaviors of certain particles that behaved both as fluids and electrons (?), depending on whether they were observed, and defied the notion that they move as waves. Maybe they are both fluid and EM at the same time.

Maybe black holes are reclycling devices that recycle "old" energy from a universe to make "new" energy in another universe. Maybe that's what the Big Bang is all about. Maybe our souls will be recycled that way when we reach the end of our spiritual journey, and maybe then another spiritual journey will start and we will become another life form. Maybe that's how human souls came to be.

Maybe the soul is an EM monopole in time/space and I misinterpreted the information. Maybe future science will indicate that there can be an EM monopole in a different dimension under a different time/space condition, and that it can move (or "leak") between dimensions like maybe gravity does.

 

[Paulus]

Welcome, @Paulus !
Reading The Spirits's Book has been in my to-do list for decades, even though I did read portions of it.

I can recommend it. I was prejudiced about it and expected some vague dancing table mumbo, where aunt on the other side locates nephews lost ring etc. To my pleasant surprise it turned out to be a very well written book, with clear answers to 'hard' questions.

I didn't see a Spiritist forum around here (okay, maybe I didn't look for it the right way), which surprises me. It's such a well-established and respected doctrine.

I haven't found anything either. Perhaps it is something to consider for a section one day by the mods. I think it would fit under Modern Religions, because it originates from somewhere around 1850.

Maybe because God has always known that something was going to happen and, were it not supposed to happen, God would not have allowed it. Our evolution is not meant to be pain-free, otherwise it's incomplete.

Just because God knows that something is ahead doesn't mean we can try to steer for the best possible course. On our own merit and/or with a little help from above. Jesus prayed too, and not just for the friendly hello.

 

[plouton6]

Jesus prayed too, and not just for the friendly hello.

As special as he was/is, Jesus was in the corporeal plane then. He had a greater control of his body and a greater integration of the halves of his soul than any other human in known history, but still was influenced by the body's energy (the flesh, if you will).

I don't mean to discredit the Spiritist notion of merit (in which I believe) or your faith in Jesus or God. I'm just offering an alternate explanation.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Do they go away when no human is watching?
Did the sun not shine on our pre-human ancestors?

They did all that, but they too, like most of us, had to depend only on perception.

Is the subject matter of the theories you have in mind applicable to the processes I asked about?

Yes, they are fully congruent with the latest in science. Otherwise, I would not have accepted them.

 

[plouton6]

The idea of the soul as an electromagnetic monopole (photon?) outside of time/space doen't agree with 21st Century science. So this 'fluid' can't really be a form of EM by modern definition?

It's just occurred to me that Shipwright did mention photons in one of his lectures. Maybe the soul is a photon or photon-like particle.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It's just occurred to me that Shipwright did mention photons in one of his lectures. Maybe the soul is a photon or photon-like particle.

Capt. Shipwright may have accepted voudoo.

"Vodun (meaning spirit in the Fon, Gun and Ewe languages, pronounced [vodṹ] with a nasal high-tone u; also spelled Vodon, Vodoun, Vodou, Vudu, Voudou, Voodoo, etc.) is a religion practiced by the Aja, Ewe, and Fon peoples of Benin, Togo, Ghana, and Nigeria."

 

[Cino]

You can't remove a phrase from a paragraph and ask a question ignoring the sentences that come next. Removal of context distorts ideas. The text is meant to be read as a whole.

You can click the little hard-to-spot blue upward pointing arrow in the title bar of the quote box, to get to the post being replied to, for context.

But here is the passage in context (empasis mine):

I appreciate a philosophical line of questioning like this one.

I believe time and space belong to the corporeal plane. We can't function without them as incarnated humans, and space is a big part of the corporeal plane.

Physicists dispute the notion of time in some theories, so to speak. The events we observe in the universe are a form of time travel, and space travel itself would be a form of time travel if we went to the next solar system and then back to Earth. Time does play a big role in the corporeal plane, but contemporary science indicates such role may be more fluid than our everyday strict notion of time.

My question within this context: Is the subject matter of the theories you have in mine applicable to our experience as human beings existing in time and space?

I'm asking because quantum mechanics is so often invoked in contexts where it doesn't apply, such as macroscopic systems like mammal organisms.

Here's what I mean, and I don't want to be preachy, this is just to clarify my question: In quantum mechanics, the interaction of a photon with an electron works the same way "backward" and "forward" in time. It is fully reversible. If it were possible to film this process, then it would be impossible to tell if the film was played "backwards" or "forwards".

On the other hand, if I pour a liter red paint into a liter of white paint and stir it counterclockwise for 10 minutes, they will mix to form pink paint. If I then stir the mixture clockwise for 10 minutes, it will not separate back into white and red, even though I did the exact opposite of what cause them to mix. This process is irreversible. If this process is filmed, then it is obvious when the film is played backwards. The arrow of time applies.

So to get back to my question about time and space being a matter of human perception: Would you put the perception of watching the movie of pink paint separating into white and red paint upon being stirred, into the same category as the perception of the movie of white and red blending into pink upon being stirred? Or would you place one into "funny prank" and the other one into "documentary"?

 

[RJM]

quantum mechanics is so often invoked in contexts where it doesn't apply, such as macroscopic systems like mammal organisms

This

 

[Aupmanyav]

On the other hand, if I pour a liter red paint into a liter of white paint and stir it counterclockwise for 10 minutes, they will mix to form pink paint. If I then stir the mixture clockwise for 10 minutes, it will not separate back into white and red, even though I did the exact opposite of what cause them to mix. This process is irreversible. If this process is filmed, then it is obvious when the film is played backwards. The arrow of time applies.

Go a little deeper into the paint, Cino; there is no paint, there are only atom, or you can say there are only points of energy. The red and white paint and the resultant pink and the stirrer are only our perception.

 

[plouton6]

My question within this context: Is the subject matter of the theories you have in mine applicable to our experience as human beings existing in time and space?

Thanks for your clarification and elaboration. They helped me understand what you were questioning.

The highlighted paragraph is about how time is perceived differently depending on where we are in the corporeal plane. It introduces the idea that if different perceptions of time happen in the corporeal plane, there is no reason to think that a different perception of time would not happen in the spiritual plane.

The whole point is that time can be experienced in different ways in the corporeal plane, and the corporeal experience of time is not the same as the spiritual experience of time.

The existing theories are applicable to our experience as corporeal human beings existing in the corporeal plane's time and space, but are not fully applicable to our experience as spiritual human beings in the spiritual plane (another dimension with different properties where time and space as we know them do not exist within it).

I'm asking because quantum mechanics is so often invoked in contexts where it doesn't apply, such as macroscopic systems like mammal organisms.

Maybe future science will find that, in some levels, it does. Science has found applications of theories that were once thought impossible or unlikely, until a breakthrough discovery came along.

Here's what I mean, and I don't want to be preachy, this is just to clarify my question: In quantum mechanics, the interaction of a photon with an electron works the same way "backward" and "forward" in time. It is fully reversible. If it were possible to film this process, then it would be impossible to tell if the film was played "backwards" or "forwards".

This example is the spiritual plane and how the corporeal plane's timeline is perceived there upon observation.

On the other hand, if I pour a liter red paint into a liter of white paint and stir it counterclockwise for 10 minutes, they will mix to form pink paint. If I then stir the mixture clockwise for 10 minutes, it will not separate back into white and red, even though I did the exact opposite of what cause them to mix. This process is irreversible. If this process is filmed, then it is obvious when the film is played backwards. The arrow of time applies.

This example is the corporeal plane and how we experience time here.

So to get back to my question about time and space being a matter of human perception: Would you put the perception of watching the movie of pink paint separating into white and red paint upon being stirred, into the same category as the perception of the movie of white and red blending into pink upon being stirred? Or would you place one into "funny prank" and the other one into "documentary"?

It depends on perspective, as indicated in this post in other replies to your comments.

 

[Cino]

Go a little deeper into the paint, Cino; there is no paint, there are only atom, or you can say there are only points of energy. The red and white paint and the resultant pink and the stirrer are only our perception.

You make it sound like perception is an object.

What do you mean by perception?

 

[Cino]

It introduces the idea that if different perceptions of time happen in the corporeal plane, there is no reason to think that a different perception of time would not happen in the spiritual plane.

Oh I understand you now, I think.

I misunderstood you to mean that time&space were purely artifacts of perception, rather than that there were different modes of perception of time&space.

 

[plouton6]

Capt. Shipwright may have accepted voudoo.

He did kinda outline how it works.

 

[plouton6]

Oh I understand you now, I think.

I misunderstood you to mean that time&space were purely artifacts of perception, rather than that there were different modes of perception of time&space.

You do understand. I like how you put it.