Quran says that Jesus Christ died a natural death.

[Firedragon]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_terminology#Ṣaḥīḥ

That appears to contradict you.

Too shallow brother. Way way too shallow. And it does not contradict what I said. Just that, it's not deep enough to understand Sahih/Sarih. No way.

I'm saying that that is how I see it.
I'm not saying that the majority of classical scholars would agree.

I never said anything about a majority Muhammad.

Well, there are many sahih hadiths about the return of Jesus AS.
Here's another..

Jabir ibn Abdullah reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Jesus the son of Mary, peace and blessings be upon him, will descend and the Muslim leader will say: Come lead us in prayer. Jesus will say: No, some of you are leaders over others, as Allah has honored this nation.”
- Sahih Muslim -

If you question all sahih hadiths that mention the return of Jesus, I would presume that you reject many other hadiths,
unlike the majority of so-called sunni Muslims [orthodox] that I've come across.

Lol. Okay.

1. Can you tell me if there is a thadhlees in this narration?
2. Think about the Qur'an not mentioning anything about such an important eschatological event like Jesus himself coming back?

 

[muhammad_isa]

1. Can you tell me if there is a thadhlees in this narration?

No .. I don't put so much weight on hadith as the Qur'an, in any case.
However, unless a hadith specifically disagrees with the Qur'an, I treat them as plausible,
and a good source of knowledge.

2. Think about the Qur'an not mentioning anything about such an important eschatological event like Jesus himself coming back?

I agree that there is nothing substantial in the Qur'an about this matter.
However, I do believe that the Qur'an states that Jesus AS was not killed, but he "ascended to heaven".
..doesn't sound like a "natural death", to me. Why would that be?
That, and the fact that the Qur'an states clearly that Jesus AS is the expected Jewish Messiah.
As far as I'm aware, he hasn't completed this role as yet.

 

[Firedragon]

No .. I don't put so much weight on hadith as the Qur'an, in any case.
However, unless a hadith specifically disagrees with the Qur'an, I treat them as plausible,
and a good source of knowledge.

That's not what I asked Muhammad. I asked a direct question about the hadith you brought from Imam Muslim. I asked if there was any thadhlees in it. Nothing to do with the Qur'an. Hope you understand.

I agree that there is nothing substantial in the Qur'an about this matter.
However, I do believe that the Qur'an states that Jesus AS was not killed, but he "ascended to heaven".
..doesn't sound like a "natural death", to me. Why would that be?
That, and the fact that the Qur'an states clearly that Jesus AS is the expected Jewish Messiah.
As far as I'm aware, he hasn't completed this role as yet.

The Qur'an does not say "he ascended to heaven". Unless you believe God is heaven. Read the Qur'an fully. Every instance thawaffoona is mentioned in the Qur'an with the qualifier Mu, it always meant "cause you to die".

And the Qur'an does not say Jesus is the "expected Jewish Messiah". It says he is the messiah. Never as the "expected Jewish Messiah". Asmuhoo Maseeh. His name is Messiah. Or he will be called Messiah. Asma meaning name.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The Qur'an does not say "he ascended to heaven". Unless you believe God is heaven..

That's why I put it in inverted commas.
Here is what it says in word-for-word translation..

"Nay, he was raised (by) Allah towards Him"
https://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=4&verse=158

And the Qur'an does not say Jesus is the "expected Jewish Messiah". It says he is the messiah.

True. Nevertheless, I find the orthodox Muslim view of Jesus to be coherent, taking into account
the sahih hadiths, and the above.
There is a reason why he was called the Messiah, surely .. must be more than just "a name".
Jesus is reported to have said he is "the messiah", but was rejected by the majority .. and he was from the linage of David.

Of course, Allah SWT knows best.

 

[Firedragon]

That's why I put it in inverted commas.
Here is what it says in word-for-word translation..

"Nay, he was raised (by) Allah towards Him"
https://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=4&verse=158

In the same source, click on the word transliterated as "mutawaffika" or what ever they have written in English as. Take the list of other occurences of the same in the Qur'an. I don't know if you know arabic, but if you do you will understand what I say immediately. If you don't know arabic, you still could if you look at the list in your own source.

True. Nevertheless, I find the orthodox Muslim view of Jesus to be coherent, taking into account
the sahih hadiths, and the above.
There is a reason why he was called the Messiah, surely .. must be more than just "a name".
Jesus is reported to have said he is "the messiah", but was rejected by the majority .. and he was from the linage of David.

Of course, Allah SWT knows best.

I understand that it's your faith matter Muhammad. I am only pointing out the errors you have made in the journey quoting the Qur'an and ahadith. I am not going into details because I am sure you are not ready to look at the ahadith you are quoting and you did not even attempt responding to the question about Thadhlees I asked you. It's alright, I am only telling you this to show you that the reason you didn't even clarify what Thadhlees is, is because you do not wish to. Even if you don't know what that is, you did not clarify it because you wish to stick to your belief. It's perfectly fine and nothing is gonna change you being a great person, I am only pointing it out to you.

Hope you understand. If I recommend something you might not like it, thus I shall stop now.

Have a great day. Peace.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I don't know if you know arabic, but if you do you will understand what I say immediately. If you don't know arabic, you still could if you look at the list in your own source.

No, my mother tongue is English and I only recognise a few words.
I did an elementary study of Arabic. Long time ago.

..you did not even attempt responding to the question about Thadhlees I asked you. It's alright, I am only telling you this to show you that the reason you didn't even clarify what Thadhlees is, is because you do not wish to.

I didn't consider it worth going through a list of sahih hadiths to be told that they are weak in some way.

Hope you understand. If I recommend something you might not like it..

I don't mind. I am always willing to learn something new.
I am of course, wary of non-mainstream views, but many people say that I am not mainstream, anyhow.

Have a great day. Peace.

..and peace be with you.

 

[muhammad_isa]

In the same source, click on the word transliterated as "mutawaffika" or what ever they have written in English as.

(4:158:1) bal Nay,		RET– retraction particle حرف اضراب
(4:158:2) rafaʿahu he was raised		V – 3rd person masculine singular perfect verb PRON– 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun فعل ماض والهاء ضمير متصل في محل نصب مفعول به
(4:158:3) l-lahu (by) Allah		PN – nominative proper noun → Allah لفظ الجلالة مرفوع
(4:158:4) ilayhi towards Him.		P – preposition PRON– 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun جار ومجرور

I don't see it, do you?

 

[Firedragon]

I don't mind. I am always willing to learn something new.

Then Muhammad, you must understand that just because a hadith is ranked as Sahih, that does not mean it's Sarih. And you should know that Thadhlees means people who make up chains to establish their particular hadith. That means there could be a hadith that has a narrator who basically blagged about his narrator. This is a very normal thing in the usool. The thing is, very few people speak about it. And honestly, people like you are blind following them with this idea of "Its from a Sahih book so it has to be absolute truth".

Even though you claim that you do not follow ahadith blindly, you are doing exactly what you claim you don't do. Ask questions. Peace.

 

[Firedragon]

(4:158:1) bal Nay,		RET– retraction particle حرف اضراب
(4:158:2) rafaʿahu he was raised		V – 3rd person masculine singular perfect verb PRON– 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun فعل ماض والهاء ضمير متصل في محل نصب مفعول به
(4:158:3) l-lahu (by) Allah		PN – nominative proper noun → Allah لفظ الجلالة مرفوع
(4:158:4) ilayhi towards Him.		P – preposition PRON– 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun جار ومجرور

I don't see it, do you?

I gave you a whole list of the same word. You have completely ignored it. Maybe you wish to see it again so that you do not ignore it again. from your own source. What you should do is question why in this particular instance they have shown a different meaning. Not blind follow because it suits your already established belief. Be honest and use your Akal.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I gave you a whole list of the same word. You have completely ignored it.

Umm .. with respect, I think we are talking at cross purposes here.
Look again at post #127

rafa'ahu --- he was raised

nothing to do with die.
I think you are referring to something else.

 

[Firedragon]

Umm .. with respect, I think we are talking at cross purposes here.
Look again at post #127

rafa'ahu --- he was raised

nothing to do with die.
I think you are referring to something else.

Oh God. I gave you the verse several times, gave an image from the same source you gave, and you are referring to the other word.

I am referring to the same verse. 3:55. You are referring to another word in the same verse. Read the full verse, not one syllable or one word. It's innee muthawaffika waraafiuka. How in the universe can you ignore the immediate word before rafaa? I even gave you the steps to follow to do your own research.

Nevertheless, I will give you the same verse used across the Qur'an and cut and paste the image for the third time. I understand you don't know arabic now, but that's not an issue. What you need to do is spend a little time doing the research on your own source website.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I am referring to the same verse. 3:55. You are referring to another word in the same verse.

Actually, I was referring to 4:158.
..but OK .. you want to talk about 3:55

Read the full verse, not one syllable or one word. It's innee muthawaffika waraafiuka

Right..

The majority of Muslims translate the verb "mutawafik" (متوفيك) "to terminate after a period of time" while others translate it "to die of natural causes".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_Jesus'_death

I cannot argue from a classical arabic point of view, but this issue has obviously been considered by those that can.
The majority of orthodox Muslims believe that Jesus did not die .. period.

Why do you not also consider the history surrounding Jesus AS?
It was/is a common belief among Christians that Jesus died on the cross, and appeared to his disciples afterwards.
The Qur'an states clearly that "he did not die on the cross", and so it is not difficult to believe that his disciples actually did meet him after the event i.e. whatever actually happened re. his apparent crucifixion

We are then left wondering what actually happened to him next. If he had died a natural death or emigrated to India etc. etc. then why is there no record of that?
He simply disappeared from "the radar".
Why is it so difficult to believe that the ascension actually happened?
Makes sense to me .. the messiah will come back in the "end times".

 

[Firedragon]

The majority of Muslims translate the verb "mutawafik" (متوفيك) "to terminate after a period of time" while others translate it "to die of natural causes".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_Jesus'_death

Good God.

Well, though your source of salvation is wikipedia, at least you have finally after the half a dozen attempts acknowledged the "word" in contest.

I cannot argue from a classical arabic point of view, but this issue has obviously been considered by those that can.
The majority of orthodox Muslims believe that Jesus did not die .. period.

That's not based on "classical arabic" which you have just now falsely attributed to for some reason. that's due to like you, blind faith in some ahadith that you intentionally are oblivious of frailty. Intentionally.

Why do you not also consider the history surrounding Jesus AS?

Please do give me the historical sources that quote Jesus to have either died at the cross, lived through the crucifixion, or being "taken alive to heaven by God". YOu are making another blind faith claim. Please do quote me tacitus, Pliny the elder or Josephus and lets see how far you have done the research or just blindly followed what people told you to do.

The Qur'an states clearly that "he did not die on the cross"

Very true. The Qur'an clearly states that. So who told you "he died on the cross"? Anyway you don't believe in the Qur'an because you are blindly believing in something never mentioned in the Qur'an. Do you see your source of theological truth? It's not the Qur'an.

We are then left wondering what actually happened to him next. If he had died a natural death or emigrated to India etc. etc. then why is there no record of that?

I have no clue what happened to him. It's not really necessary for my theology as a Muslim. It's a necessary matter for people who wish to create sectarian strife based on a worldly affair, not theological teachings of the Qur'an or God. There are no historical records of many people like Moses, Abraham, Adam, Noah, Jonah, etc, etc, etc. That does not affect my theology.

Why is it so difficult to believe that the ascension actually happened?
Makes sense to me .. the messiah will come back in the "end times".

It's alright with me if you wish to believe in the "ascension" so blindly. It's not going to affect my theological beliefs. I am only responding to your questions and your false claims about "Jewish Messiahs", and all the other false claims you have so far made. I can see that you avoid every single question in order to blindly follow your dogmatic faith. I have no problem with it. But the problem is, your grounds to your faith has many faults and you are absolutely unwilling to look at them.

So it's best that you leave it to your faith and not engage with that discussion.

Cheers.

 

[muhammad_isa]

That's not based on "classical arabic" which you have just now falsely attributed to for some reason. that's due to like you, blind faith in some ahadith that you intentionally are oblivious of frailty. Intentionally.

It's more than that. There are many verses in the Qur'an that mention Jesus AS.
You seem to want to make it all about translation of certain verses about him "dying".
It doesn't really affect my view whether he "died" or not, when it comes to the question of "end times".

Please do give me the historical sources that quote Jesus to have either died at the cross, lived through the crucifixion, or being "taken alive to heaven by God".

Allah SWT states clearly that he did not die on the cross.
Historical sources that said he did, were mistaken.
It doesn't have to be all lies, as such, as Allah SWT states that "it appeared so".

..you don't believe in the Qur'an because you are blindly believing in something never mentioned in the Qur'an.

I do believe that you are saying that it is "bidah" [innovation] to believe that Jesus AS will return in the end times.

I have no clue what happened to him. It's not really necessary for my theology as a Muslim. It's a necessary matter for people who wish to create sectarian strife based on a worldly affair, not theological teachings of the Qur'an or God. There are no historical records of many people like Moses, Abraham, Adam, Noah, Jonah, etc, etc, etc. That does not affect my theology.

I would say that there is plenty in the Qur'an to create "sectarian strife", when it comes to religion.

It's alright with me if you wish to believe in the "ascension" so blindly. It's not going to affect my theological beliefs. I am only responding to your questions and your false claims about "Jewish Messiahs", and all the other false claims you have so far made.

Am I supposed to not use my intelligence?
Christianity evolved from a belief in Jesus as "the Messiah" in a Jewish setting around Jerusalem.
Would you not agree with that?

I can see that you avoid every single question in order to blindly follow your dogmatic faith. I have no problem with it. But the problem is, your grounds to your faith has many faults and you are absolutely unwilling to look at them.

No. We all have faults. I am willing to change my beliefs if I can see that they are wrong.
So far, you have not convinced me.

 

[Firedragon]

It's more than that. There are many verses in the Qur'an that mention Jesus AS.
You seem to want to make it all about translation of certain verses about him "dying".
It doesn't really affect my view whether he "died" or not, when it comes to the question of "end times".

Okay. No problem then. I didn't say Jesus was not mentioned in teh Qur'an. See, I have read every single verse in the Qur'an in every single manner possible. But you have not because you obviously don't know one word prior to your favourite word in one single verse in the book.

And if it's not about translation, what is it about? If a word is not translated, how would you know what it is saying? In your case, it's all about translation so that's what you should focus upon. And if this does not affect your view, that's no problem to me Muhammad. I am only making it clear that your grounding is so flawed and you are not even willing to do 10 minutes of research on your eschatology. Up to you.

Allah SWT states clearly that he did not die on the cross.

Again, I did not say he dies on the cross. It says Ma Salaboohoo, wa ma kathaloohoo. He was neither killed nor was he crucified like they claimed. It was only Shubbihaa.

Don't worry Muhammad. I have read the Qur'an. I mean every word. Not just one word in one sentence to suit your belief like you have negating and ignoring every single word in the Quran other than the verse you want to use for your already established blind faith. So far, I have given you information from your own source website which you only cut and paste from but have never in your studied through. So you ignored it all throughout.

Historical sources that said he did, were mistaken.

What historical sources? I asked you. Mentioned them. What did they say? Josephus, Pliny, Tacitus. What did they say?

I would say that there is plenty in the Qur'an to create "sectarian strife", when it comes to religion.

If you really really wish to create "sectarian strife", you can find hatred anywhere you want. It depends on your already established blind faith and intent. You can do it with any book.

Christianity evolved from a belief in Jesus as "the Messiah" in a Jewish setting around Jerusalem.
Would you not agree with that?

That's not relevant. Your cliam was that the Quran said that Jesus IS the expected Jewish Messiah which was so false while you never acknowledged you were absolutely wrong. Sorry but you were just wrong and you misquoted the Qur'an so many times already. I know you are a good person mate, but i also understand that its a faith matter for you so you will ignore any fact that goes against your faith.

Am I supposed to not use my intelligence?

From the beginning i have been telling you to use your akal. If you didnt know what that means why dont you ask? It means intelligence. Reason.

No. We all have faults. I am willing to change my beliefs if I can see that they are wrong.
So far, you have not convinced me.

Haha. You have not even spent 10 minutes researching what I have said. So it's absurd to even think about convincing yourself about anything but what you already have convinced yourself about. You don't follow the Qur'an. You are blind following what others told you so your conviction is in people, not God. That's your religion. Not mine. But it's okay. Qur'an says Lakum Dheenukum Waliadhdheen. It's fine with me. I am only responding to you because that's the purpose of a forum.

But I would recommend that you read the books I recommended to you. They are not some strange sectarian books but traditional and mainstream Sunni scholarship. Of course you will not read them by the looks of it since you did not even do your favourite quick google search on them and find a wikipedia article.

It's alright Muhammad. Lakum Dheenukum waliaddheen.

Salamun Alaika Laka Ahi.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So far, I have given you information from your own source website which you only cut and paste from but have never in your studied through. So you ignored it all throughout.

I didn't ignore it. I was discussing a different verse to you, originally.
..but I let it go, so as to concentrate on your point.

What historical sources? I asked you. Mentioned them. What did they say? Josephus, Pliny, Tacitus. What did they say?

Any historical source, including the Bible.
It doesn't matter what they said when it comes to "dying on the cross" .. they were mistaken.

That's not relevant. Your cliam was that the Quran said that Jesus IS the expected Jewish Messiah which was so false while you never acknowledged you were absolutely wrong.

I don't think that I claimed that.
I said "There is a reason why he was called the Messiah, surely .. must be more than just "a name".
Jesus is reported to have said he is "the messiah", but was rejected by the majority .. and he was from the linage of David."
I was referring to the Bible. You might reject its entirety. I do not.

Sorry but you were just wrong and you misquoted the Qur'an so many times already.

Which post? Where?

Haha. You have not even spent 10 minutes researching what I have said.

On the contrary, I have,
Peace be with you

 

[Firedragon]

I didn't ignore it. I was discussing a different verse to you, originally.

Nope. Same verse. Same sentence.

Any historical source, including the Bible.
It doesn't matter what they said when it comes to "dying on the cross" .. they were mistaken.

So who told you he died on the cross? Not me Muhammad. Thus, it's not relevant to me.

I don't think that I claimed that.
I said "There is a reason why he was called the Messiah, surely .. must be more than just "a name".
Jesus is reported to have said he is "the messiah", but was rejected by the majority .. and he was from the linage of David."
I was referring to the Bible. You might reject its entirety. I do not.

you claimed the Qur'an claimed Jesus is the awaited Jewish Messiah. Which was false, and maybe now you retract it. No problem. But that's what you claimed.

Which post? Where?

Read the immediate sentences I made above.

On the contrary, I have,

Then please explain to me what Malik Ibn Anas, Ibn Mujahid and Kathada said.

Thanks.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Sorry but you were just wrong and you misquoted the Qur'an so many times already.

Which post? Where?

Read the immediate sentences I made above.

The post number will do
Misinterpret, maybe .. not misquote.

Then please explain to me what Malik Ibn Anas, Ibn Mujahid and Kathada said.

I can't tell you.
I spent at least 45mins. altogether in research and replies.

What exactly are you referring to when you say "please explain to me what Malik Ibn Anas, Ibn Mujahid and Kathada said."
I'm sure they said a lot of things.

 

[Firedragon]

The post number will do
Misinterpret, maybe .. not misquote.

Oh it was misquote.

What exactly are you referring to when you say "please explain to me what Malik Ibn Anas, Ibn Mujahid and Kathada said."
I'm sure they said a lot of things.

About Jesus's second coming.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Oh it was misquote.

So you say, but still no post number.

About Jesus's second coming.

Yes, I see.

Closer inspection of these ahadith will show you that none of them are Sarih. It's a debated question, but it's true that the ahadith are not Sarih. So it is a faith matter, not an evidence based Akal matter. I do believe it's an israeliath issue with ahadith.

OK .. I see you are not satisfied with the reliability of hadith.
I would agree that the Qur'an does not specifically say that Jesus will return.

I notice that you don't want to rely on any other information other than the Qur'an.
I understand your position, and it is safer than claiming Jesus is definitely returning, I would agree.

Allah SWT knows best which hadiths are true and which aren't.
If there was that much doubt, it would be difficult for Muslim jurists to accept Jesus' return.
..but they do!