30 verses of Bible say " Jesus did not die on the Cross".

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It's all in there in the gospels. A person just needs to take the time to read them.

The New Testament Jesus is very different from the Quran Jesus. He is a real figure, not the remote sketch portrayed in the Quran.

But a person has to read the NT to know
 
muhammad_isa said:
..and the disappearance of his body from the tomb was part of that "illusion"?
It seems strange that none of this happened before his crucifixion.. :)
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Quick input:
A: The empty tomb was and is not an illusion, and
B: That none of this happened before the the crucifixion is an assumption – there are signs it might well have, although not in precisely the same way.
 
Thomas said:
That none of this happened before the the crucifixion is an assumption – there are signs it might well have, although not in precisely the same way.
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Yes. Christ chose to become man. He chose the crucifixion and resurrection. How great is that? He chose it. He could have backed-out, imo

There are those who cannot and will not understand.

If people prefer to believe a sinless and virgin-born miracle worker prophet Jesus messed up the job God sent him down to do and ended up getting himself crucified -- and so God had to quickly whisk him away back up to Heaven to prevent him really getting killed -- and ended up starting a whole new false religion of Christianity by mistake ... let them believe it.

But they're not going to get support from the NT. Many who profess to respect Jesus as (just) a great ascended prophet don't seem to have much confidence in his abilities, imo
 
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RJM said:
John was not the incarnate Christ, if that's what you mean..
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No, that's not what I mean..
I mean what I say: "was the beheading of John the Baptist part of G-d's plan as was the death of Jesus on the cross" ?
 
RJM said:
Yes. Christ chose to become man. He chose the crucifixion and resurrection..
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..then why did Jesus say "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

I just don't get it .. I can't see how John the Baptist and Jesus would want, or choose to be killed.
 
muhammad_isa said:
No, that's not what I mean..
I mean what I say: "was the beheading of John the Baptist part of G-d's plan as was the death of Jesus on the cross" ?
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I don't believe it says anywhere in the NT that it was. So it's speculation. It does say in the NT that Judas's betrayal was a necessary part of the plan, however
 
muhammad_isa said:
then why did Jesus say "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
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Some say he was reciting Psalm 22. We don't know. Jesus identified with every part of human suffering, including the (mistaken) belief that in our darkest hour, God has forsaken us. Christ covers all the bases. From depth of hell to height of heaven. The crucifixion holds infinite mysteries.
muhammad_isa said:
I just don't get it .. I can't see how John the Baptist and Jesus would want, or choose to be killed.
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You don't, won't and never will. Go your way in peace ...
 
@muhammad_isa
Christ's voluntary sacrifice is the very root and heart of Christianity. Miss that and you miss the whole package, imo

No offence: it's a gulf too wide
 
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muhammad_isa said:
In Orthodox Christianity, maybe.

..and this is where the debate over "died for sins" and going to heaven or hell starts.
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But you have no Jesus. You have only the NT Jesus, and you cannot bend the NT to fit the Jesus you want him to be?
 
You don't know anything about the real Jesus. You only have a thin shadow. You have not read the New Testament, beyond what you picked up as a child in Sunday school. You miss the very essence of Jesus.

That would be fine, you have your religion of your own holy book. Yet you are encouraged to inform Christians of the error of their beliefs at every opportunity. It's sad and desperate and hollow, imo
 
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muhammad_isa said:
@RJM
Your last three posts are straw-men. You are not responding to my argument.
Nevermind.
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Someone else can wrangle theology. You dont know anything about the real Jesus. The essence and spirit of Jesus escapes you. You have a Wikipedia Jesus. You reject all of Paul and all of John, and what little of the NT is left, you haven't even read.

So that would be the starting place for any reasonable discussion, before trying to correct Christians about the error of their faith, imo
 
RJM said:
Someone else can wrangle theology. You dont know anything about the real Jesus. The essence and spirit of Jesus escapes you. You have a Wikipedia Jesus. You reject all of Paul and all of John, and what little of the NT is left, you haven't even read.

So that would be the starting place for any reasonable discussion, before trying to correct Christians about the error of their faith, imo
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You don't want a reasonable discussion.
You constantly resort to ad-hominem, due to me believing in the Qur'an.
What has the Qur'an got to do with anything in the Christianity section?
I have not mentioned it.

If you are not interested in theology, then that's fine .. leave the Qur'an out of it please.
 
muhammad_isa said:
You constantly resort to ad-hominum, due to me believing in the Qur'an.
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I react to your assumption you are in a position to educate Christians about their faith while rejecting the incarnation, the death and resurrection, and all of Paul and John, and not having read the rest. You have said you can't understand the nature of Christ's message. What is your reason for taking the position that you do?

Why can you not accept Christians believe as they do? What is your problem with what they believe?
 
RJM said:
Why can you not accept Christians believe as they do? What is your problem with what they believe?
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I do accept that most Christians believe that Jesus "died for their sins" .. I just don't agree with it. :)

Anyhow, you clearly don't wish to discuss it, so..
 
Removed
Let it go
Peace ...
 
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Thomas said:
The Gnostics offered alternative texts, but again, I'm not sure a Pilate-organised conspiracy numbers among them.
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A lot of the Gnostic texts were lost to time but I have read all of the Nag Hammadi scriptures as well as a few other Gnostic texts from that time period. I have also read the heresiologists' accounts of Gnostic sects and their supposed beliefs, too.

I am fairly certain that I would have remembered such a thing if it was mentioned in any of these sources.

There was a lot of Docetism. I know that a few texts have Jesus sort of tricking the masses into thinking he was crucified so they would leave him alone, sometimes crucifying an illusory copy of himself called "Error." There was nothing with Pilate, though.

Actually, now that I think about it, many figures like Pilate, Mary, Joseph, and James are often omitted from Gnostic texts altogether, probably because Gnostics generally had a far more esoteric and metaphorical understanding of who Jesus was and these figures are interwoven with Jesus's humanity.
 
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