30 verses of Bible say " Jesus did not die on the Cross".

[Ella S.]

That's the second time that you avoid the issue I raise..
We know that "the Romans" end up with Christianity as their state religion.
That means that they preferred some beliefs over others .. certainly not Jewish ones.

Constantine associating Jesus with Sol Invictus and Apollo has always fascinated me.

I am sorry to say that I agree. The Christianity that became adopted by Rome had far more in common with Neoplatonism and Stoicism than Judaism.

I don't think this is really too unexpected or a conspiracy, though. Obviously, the forms of early Christianity that would spread the most among a Roman audience would be the forms that they were more inclined to agree with and Jesus himself was likely a Hellenistic Jew that had some influence from philosophies the masses were already familiar with.

When Christianity essentially drops the mishvot and Christians stopped practicing Jewish cultural norms, which I think happened long before it became the state religion, it parted greatly from Judaism and came to rest a lot more on those Hellenistic elements.

However, the death and resurrection of Jesus probably isn't pagan in origin, in my opinion. Some people point to Dionysus and I did, too, for awhile until someone pointed out to me that Dionysus didn't become a dying-and-rising god until after Christianity. It seems the influences here ran both ways, which they often do when cultures come together.

 

[badger]

I do accept that most Christians believe that Jesus "died for their sins" .. I just don't agree with it.

Anyhow, you clearly don't wish to discuss it, so..

Hi....
The above post was written to another member, I just wanted to ask you some questions. Is that OK?

Your thread title reads that '30 verses of the bible say that Jesus did not die on cross'.

Those are what I am interested in, so could you please show me some? I would trawl through the posts of 14 pages but you must have these verses in easy reach.

Even one verse at a time would be most helpful.

 

[badger]

I will proceed in 10 parts of my topic. please reply or comment after one part.
I – The Sign of Jonah
Now we proceed with our arguments from the Bible itself to show that Jesus did not die on the Cross. We read in the New Testament:

“And when the people were gathered thick together, he (Jesus) began to say, this is an evil generation: they seek a sign: and there shall no sign be given it but the sign of Jonah the prophet. For as Jonah was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man to this generation”. (Luke 11: 29, 30)

Again:

“But he answered and said unto them; an evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign: and there shall be no sign given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah: for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Matthew 12: 39, 40)

Jesus Christ is said here to give a sign to the people of his own time as Jonah, the prophet, had given to the Ninevites? Now what was the sign given by Jonah to the Ninevites? The Bible says:

“Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish’s belly. And said, l cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest, my voice”. (Jonah 1:17-2; 1,2)

According to this verse is the Bible, Jonah was swallowed up by a big fish where he remained three days and three nights and then came out alive from the belly of the fish. It was a sign given to the Ninevites. Jonah prayed to God for deliverance while in the belly of the fish. The Lord heard his prayer and Jonah came out alive. Jesus says that no sign shall be given to the evil and adulterous generation of his time except that of Jonah.

Now what is the resemblance between the two signs of Jonah and Jesus. It is nothing but going alive into the belly of the fish and the heart of the earth and coming out alive. Both Jonah and Jesus cried by reason of their respective afflictions and prayed to their Lord for deliverance. The prayers of both were heard. If Jesus did not enter the heart of the earth (sepulchre) alive, and come out alive, where is the resemblance of the two signs?

Jesus promised to show only one sign to the generation of his time, but even if that sign be not proved to be true, is there anything also to prove the truth of his claim to be a prophet? Jesus’s reference to the sign of Jonah simply means that he would not die on the cross. Therefore, there is every reason to believe that the swoon theory is not based on a wrong hypothesis.

The sign of Jonah..........
Nope........... Nothing that refers to Jonah can prove anything about Jesus, not what he had for breakfast, nor his favourite drink, nor his mission...... nothing.
Onwards...........

 

[badger]

my 2nd part:
II – Pontius Pilate’s wife sees a dream
“When he (Pilate) was set down on the Judgement seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have you nothing to do with that just man (Jesus): for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him”. (Matthew 27:19)

The lady’s dream was really true and quite opportune. It purports to mean that Christ be saved from the accursed death on the Cross. God saves his dear ones by means of dreams of others as was the case with Joseph who was released from jail having interpreted the two dreams of Pharaoh. God wanted to protect Jesus against his enemies, hence the dream of the Roman governor’s wife which influenced his judgment.

Good point!
I fully expect that the people that Pilate was most influenced by were Caesar, the Syrian Legate....and his wife!
So any pressure put on Pilate by his wife is very interesting indeed.

 

[RJM]

Hi....
The above post was written to another member, I just wanted to ask you some questions. Is that OK?

Your thread title reads that '30 verses of the bible say that Jesus did not die on cross'.

Those are what I am interested in, so could you please show me some? I would trawl through the posts of 14 pages but you must have these verses in easy reach.

Even one verse at a time would be most helpful.

@muhammad_isa did not initiate the thread. It was initiated by @Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi, an Amadiyya Muslim, who hasn't been around for awhile.

Reading through the thread is probably the best way to get a handle on the proposition, and there are links in the thread to the Amadiyya website, etc.

 

[Cino]

... Jesus himself was likely a Hellenistic Jew that had some influence from philosophies the masses were already familiar with.

He doesn't come across like that to me, in the Gospels. I mean, John the Baptists was a vocal critic of the Hellenizing elites, and he was a major influence on Jesus. Also, the way his teachings are reported in the synoptic Gospels is, in spite of all his beef with the Pharisees, much more similar in form and "flavor" to the sages of the Talmud, and not much like Plato at all.

Just my views, based on my reading these texts on my own, no claim to scholarly authority.

 

[badger]

III – The Roman Governor’s Sympathetic Attitude
The Jews presented the case of Jesus Christ to Pilate, the Roman Governor of Palestine. He held a judicial inquiry into the case and declared that he was not guilty of the charges brought against him. He said unto them:

“Ye have brought this man unto me as one that perverteth the people: and behold, I, having examined him before you, have found no fault in this man touching those things whereof ye accuse him”. (Luke 23:14)

“He went out again unto the Jews and said unto them, l find in him no fault at all. But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the Passover: will ye, therefore, that l release unto you the King of the Jews? Then cried they all again, saying, Not this man, but Barabbas.” (John 18:38, 40)

And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art, not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar”. (John 19:12)

From the references given above, it is evident that the Governor regards Jesus innocent of all the charges brought against him by the Jews, he tries his utmost to release him but when the Jews threatened to report him to the Caesar at Rome he yielded to them and handed Jesus over to them. However, secretly he took measures to see that Jesus should be saved.

If you want to be accurate then don't try to tell us that Pilate was the Governor of Palestine! That just shows that you haven't really studied all this.
Pilate was not a governor, nor legate, but a Prefect supervising Samaria, Judea and Idumea.

But Pilate sympathetic attitude is absolutely a most important piece of evidence.
Pilate did not get on with the Temple authorities, nor did he get on with Antipas, but since Antipas and Pilate both had troubles with the priesthood they actually came together (in part) over Jesus. I think that they delighted in the troubles of the Temple, that week.

 

[RJM]

A lot of the Gnostic texts were lost to time but I have read all of the Nag Hammadi scriptures as well as a few other Gnostic texts from that time period. I have also read the heresiologists' accounts of Gnostic sects and their supposed beliefs, too.

I am fairly certain that I would have remembered such a thing if it was mentioned in any of these sources.

There was a lot of Docetism. I know that a few texts have Jesus sort of tricking the masses into thinking he was crucified so they would leave him alone, sometimes crucifying an illusory copy of himself called "Error." There was nothing with Pilate, though.

Actually, now that I think about it, many figures like Pilate, Mary, Joseph, and James are often omitted from Gnostic texts altogether, probably because Gnostics generally had a far more esoteric and metaphorical understanding of who Jesus was and these figures are interwoven with Jesus's humanity.

The Gospel of Nicodemus talks about Pilate:
https://www.interfaith.org/christianity/apocrypha-nicodemus/

 

[badger]

IV- Pontius Pilate’s attempts to save Christ
Pilate, the Governor, was thoroughly convinced of the innocence of Jesus Christ, he, therefore, had a pre-planned scheme to save Jesus’s life. As a responsible official of the Roman Empire, he could not openly come to the forefront, but he was the mastermind behind the whole scheme and the chief actor in the drama. Other characters of the show were Joseph of Arimathaea, an honorable counselor, and disciple of Jesus Christ. He had already had a sepulcher hewn out in a rock garden nearby. Another actor in the drama was a learned Jew named Nicodemus who was also in the know of the whole matter. We read of him in St. John:

“And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes about a hundred pound weight”. (John 19: 39)

It was very clever of Pilate to choose Friday afternoon as the time for Jesus’s crucifixion so that he could not remain on the cross after sunset, the following day being Sabbath, so holy to the Jews. He selected Joseph and Nicodemus as the most trusted friends to execute the pre-arranged scheme. All necessary measures were adopted to bring Jesus to consciousness. Otherwise, what did Nicodemus mean by bringing the mixture of myrrh and aloes? Jesus was shown to have died in official records to pacify the Jews and the Imperial government at Rome. Joseph of Arimathaea boldly asked the Governor to hand over the ‘body’ of Jesus which request he readily granted. If the plan was not pre-conceived how could the Governor hand over the ‘body’ of Jesus to a stranger from outside? There is reason to believe that Jesus Christ himself must have been informed of the plan so that his prophecy might come true that as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Nicodemus’s meeting with Jesus Christ the previous night brings into limelight the whole story.

Pilate the Prefect!
The Governor was the Syrian Legate.

But yes, I have every belief that Pilate wanted to save Jesus.
I think he was very frightened of the mass of followers that Jesus had....... They welcome him to Jerusalem and I think they supported him all week long.

 

[RJM]

I think that they delighted in the troubles of the Temple, that week.

I doubt Pilate would have delighted in any unrest on his watch that would interfere with the flow of Roman tax money. His whole function was to keep the tax money flowing smoothly to Rome?

 

[badger]

Now, I will wait for your replies and comments.
V – Duration of Crucifixion
The duration of crucifixion or the period of time for which Jesus remained on the Cross was not long enough to warrant his death on the Cross. Criminals generally took several days to die a lingering death on the cross on account of the loss of blood from the wounds on hands and feet, the physical pain, and the pangs of hunger and thirst. The minimum time of death on the cross ranged between 24 and 28 hours, but in some cases, it took several days to die on the cross. In such cases, it became necessary to break the legs of the criminals so that death may be hastened and consummated.

Let us now probe into the matter of Jesus’s crucifixion. The New Testament tells us that Jesus remained on the cross for a few hours only. The actual duration of time Jesus remained on the cross was not more than three or four hours. Jesus Christ who was in the prime of his youth (33 years) and enjoyed excellent health, could not be expected to have died within so short a time. Especially as his legs were not broken as was done in the case of the two robbers crucified with him on the same day.

It may not be out of place here to note that, according to the Roman calendar the day began with the rising of the sun and ended with its setting. The same custom is in vogue even to this day in Arab countries. According to John (19:14), it was about the sixth hour of the day (Friday) that Pilate spoke last to the Jews vis-a-vis Jesus' crucifixion and handed him over to them.

“And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, LAMA SABACHTHANI, My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me?” (Mark 15:33, 34)

This shows that Jesus retained his consciousness up to the ninth hour of the day and then he fell into a swoon, which the New Testament writers call “giving up the ghost”.

None of the writers were present on the spot to stand as an eye-witness. The ‘swoon’ was taken to be ‘death’ and ‘death on the cross’ means an accursed death. Do we not read in the Bible,

“for he that is hanged is accursed of God”. (Deut. 21: 23).

What an audacity on the part of Christians to call a true prophet of God and accursed of God.

Yes! Absolutely...
The usual length of time for a full tortured crucifixion was 2-3 days.
That Jesus was flogged bloody would have reduced this time but to be taken down after only a very few hours suggests that he lived.
A way of clearing the lungs of fluids and blood is to pierce a lung in through a lower rib, so that spear stab was probably a life saver.

 

[badger]

VI – Coming Out of Blood and Water
“Then came the soldiers and brake the legs of the first and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs. But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water”. (John 19: 3-234)

The soldiers did not break the legs of Jesus for they took him for a dead man while actually, he was in a state of swoon, or just to silence the angry Jews he was declared be a ‘dead’ man. But one of the soldiers incidentally “pierced his side and forthwith there came out blood and water”, which is a surer sign of life for blood and water do not come out of a dead man’s body. There is much food for thought here for those who care to ponder over it.

Yep.
That spear stab was an incision to clear a lung. imo.

 

[RJM]

so that spear stab was probably a life saver.

Yep.
That spear stab was an incision to clear a lung. imo.

The resulting infection would not warrant piercing with a dirty spear, when it could be performed medically as soon as he was down from the cross. And if it was so important that it had to be done there and then, it completely negates the 'short crucifixion' argument, does it not? So why do it? Which way do you want it?

 

[badger]

VII – No Eye-Witness of Crucifixion
Three writers of the Gospels state that there was darkness over all the land from the sixth to the ninth hour and that there was an earthquake and the rocks were rent and the veil of the temple was rent in twain. It is a matter of common experience at the time of a severe dust-storm accompanied by an earthquake, people generally hasten to go home and they do not enjoy the luxury of a bloody sight-seeing. Now imagine for a moment, who could stand as an eye-witness to tell the story that Jesus actually died on the cross. The Jews, if, at all, there were any on the spot, must have run away at the sight of the rising storm and the shaking of the earth must have frightened them to turn on their heels and hasten to their homes. As to the disciples they had already fled from the scene of the crucifixion.

“Peter began to curse and to swear saying, l know not this man (Jesus) of whom you speak” (Mark 14:50)

“And they forsook him (Jesus) and fled” (Mark 14:71)

To be brief, there was no one present on the scene who could definitely and certainly say that he saw Jesus ‘giving up the ghost’. This is all mere conjecture and imagination.

Yes, there were witnesses that I have read about.
Magdalene, Salome and one other watched 'from afar' and I don't think that they would have left because it rained, or blew.... in fact Magdalene accompanied the folks who took Jesus to a tomb, else how did she know where to return....?

But the spin about the Temple curtain is just that, I think.
And the idea that a Roman leader (certainly not a centurion, more likely a decurian) spoke out that Jesus was surely God is just laughable. And who on earth stood there, listened to this and later got it written in to the gospels?

 

[badger]

VIII – Mission to the Lost Sheep of Israel
“For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost”. (Luke 19:10)

“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd”. (John 10:16)

“And he said unto them, l must preach the Kingdom of God to other cities also; For therefore l am sent”. (Luke 4: 43)

“But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel”. (Matthew 15: 24)

From the quotations given above, it is clear that Jesus’s mission was to preach to all the twelve tribes of Israel that were scattered in the eastern countries extending from Palestine to India at the time of Jesus’s appearance. Of the twelve tribes of Israel, there were at that time, only two tribes in Palestine while the other ten were found scattered in the lands stretching from Palestine to the confines of India. Jesus cannot be said to have been successful in his mission if he does not address and preach to the ten lost sheep of Israel. Jesus’s supposed death on the cross at the early age of 33 gives a shattering blow to the mission on which he was sent.

The truth of the matter is that Jesus Christ, after his escape from the cross, did migrate to the East in search of the lost sheep for which there is ample historical evidence and is recently supported by the modern ‘finds’ of archaeology. Jesus found his lost sheep in Persia, Afghanistan, and Kashmir, preached to them, and comparatively, he was much more successful here than in Palestine. He died a natural death and was buried in Srinagar, Kashmir.

Yes...... Neither Luke, John nor Matthew were witnesses to anything that happened on Golgotha, and their reports about what the living Jesus said or did after Golgotha can only show that he was alive and travelling North to exile. Maybe Pilate wanted him out of Palestine?
Reports of his visiting Cornwall with the merchant Joseph are not crazy because the ports of Sidon and Tyre had been trading with Cornwall, England for a couple of thousands of years before Jesus.
Reports of his dying in Kashmir must be considered.
Reports of Magdalene reaching Gaul must be considered with regard to a living Jesus as well.

 

[badger]

IX – Victory Over His Enemies
Addressing his disciples Jesus says :

Before, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the father is with me. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world you shall have tribulation but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world” (John 16:32,33)

Now what does Jesus’s victory consist of ? In his death on the cross or in his escape from the cross ? If he died on the cross then the Jews were successful because the very aim of their’s was to prove that he was false in calling himself the Messiah. They had in their support the Biblical statement “he that is hanged is an accursed of God” (Deut. 21:23)

But is we believe that he was taken down from the cross alive (in a state of swoon ofcourse) and he entered the heart of the earth alive, then he can rightly be said to have overcome his enemies and frustrated all their evil designs. Jesus says: “For as Jonah was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation”.

In other words, Jesus said to the Jews that God Almighty would save him from the clutches of death in the same way as He had saved Jonah from the belly of the whale. The similarity between the two incidents can be real and genuine only when Jesus enters the heart of the earth (grave) alive and comes out alive.

How Deut can influence me about what happened circa AD30 is a mystery.
Jesus didn't overcome anything, sadly......... his original mission got redirected afterwards, I think.

 

[badger]

@Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi

OK.... I did read through your earlier posts and I do think that you have an argument that Jesus lived, survived and got away.
Also.
There is a record of crucified persons being taken down from crosses alive, and surviving. (Josephus)

 

[badger]

The resulting infection would not warrant piercing with a dirty spear, when it could be performed medically as soon as he was down from the cross. And if it was so important that it had to be done there and then, it completely negates the 'short crucifixion' argument, does it not? Which way do you want it?

A 'dirty' spear!
You cannot know that.
I don't think that Roman soldiers had dirty spears, RJM.

Clearing a lung was probably crucial in saving Jesus, not killing him.
If the soldiers had wanted to be certain that Jesus was dead they would have bust his legs, so he could lift, couldn't breath.

 

[badger]

Threads like this show a person can manipulate the gospels to mean whatever he needs them to mean, with selective extracts, ignoring bits that don't suit, ...................................

Yes.

 

[badger]

I doubt Pilate would have delighted in any unrest on his watch that would interfere with the flow of Roman tax money. His whole function was to keep the tax money flowing smoothly to Rome?

So you do agree that a % of the Temple Head tax went to Rome. I think so as well.

But since no Roman was allowed to enter the Temple, wall patrols only allowed, Pilate was probable seething over Priesthood corruption....Pilate could not control this area of revenue.