30 verses of Bible say " Jesus did not die on the Cross".

Status
Not open for further replies.

Yahweh kid

I am blessed!
Messages
83
Reaction score
17
Points
8
Location
Texas
If we understand and give authority to the saying of Jesus and his actions. we can easily understand christianity.
In my above-quoted verse of the bible, when we understand the actions and saying of Pilate, then it will be easy for us to understand the survival of Jesus from the cross.
I will give you more verses of the bible on this topic after your discussion on this verse.
Sorry Ijaz, but giving me a verse and denying the ones that are pretty clear on what happened to Jesus, does not work for me. I understand this topic has been debated already....
 

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,283
Reaction score
2,194
Points
108
The Quran and certain NT apocrypha say Jesus did not die on the cross. The Gospels say Jesus died on the cross.

There can be discussion about lost or destroyed documents, and about the selection of the four Gospels to the exclusion of other gospels, such as the Gospel of Thomas -- but there is no way to draw from the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke or John the honest conclusion that Jesus did not die.

It's not in there, imo
 
Last edited:

Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi

Established Member
Messages
44
Reaction score
20
Points
8
  1. Why did Pontius Pilate just simply ignore his wife’s plea to have nothing to do with Jesus on account of her bad dream? (Matthew 27:19) If the very mission of Jesus was to suffer death, why should God Almighty show a dream to Pilate’s wife which would cause her to try and persuade her husband to release Jesus? Would not that appear to counter God’s own plan?
  2. If Pilate really wanted Jesus to die on the cross, why would he fix the crucifixion on a Friday evening knowing that the Jews would have to take him down before Sabbath and that such a little time on the cross was insufficient for him to die?
3. Why did Pilate agree to release the ‘body’ to Joseph of Arimathea
(a known Jew and follower of Jesus) if he was not sympathetic to Jesus?
 

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,283
Reaction score
2,194
Points
108
  1. Why did Pontius Pilate just simply ignore his wife’s plea to have nothing to do with Jesus on account of her bad dream? (Matthew 27:19) If the very mission of Jesus was to suffer death, why should God Almighty show a dream to Pilate’s wife which would cause her to try and persuade her husband to release Jesus? Would not that appear to counter God’s own plan?
  2. If Pilate really wanted Jesus to die on the cross, why would he fix the crucifixion on a Friday evening knowing that the Jews would have to take him down before Sabbath and that such a little time on the cross was insufficient for him to die?
3. Why did Pilate agree to release the ‘body’ to Joseph of Arimathea
(a known Jew and follower of Jesus) if he was not sympathetic to Jesus?
These points have already been dealt with above in this thread
 

Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi

Established Member
Messages
44
Reaction score
20
Points
8
This small book was written by Sir Muhammad Zafarullah Khan (late), who was President of the International Court of Justice (1970 to 1973) and the same time, President of the UN General Assembly (1970 to 1973).

He wrote with references to the Holy Bible, Logic, History, and Legal aspects of the life and death of Jesus.

Please read from page #24 to page #41, which is concerned with our topic.

https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Deliverance-from-the-Cross.pdf

(It is free to download for everyone)
 

muhammad_isa

Save Our Souls
Messages
3,271
Reaction score
702
Points
108
Location
Worcester UK
Please read from page #24 to page #41, which is concerned with our topic.
Mmmm..

..but don't read the later chapter which has yet another claim that "put your favorite contender to be messiah here"
is the promised messiah.

THERE IS ONLY ONE JEWISH MESSIAH ... and that is Jesus, son of Mary :)
 

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,283
Reaction score
2,194
Points
108
This small book was written by Sir Muhammad Zafarullah Khan (late), who was President of the International Court of Justice (1970 to 1973) and the same time, President of the UN General Assembly (1970 to 1973).

He wrote with references to the Holy Bible, Logic, History, and Legal aspects of the life and death of Jesus.

Please read from page #24 to page #41, which is concerned with our topic.

https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Deliverance-from-the-Cross.pdf
It's all been covered in the thread -- including the Turin Shroud.

And this:
Page 46
'If God had wanted to uphold Jesus he would have had to save him and surely not let him die on the cross, which Moses called accursed wood"

@Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi
Can you point to anything new in this latest tract, that has not already been discussed here?
 
Last edited:

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,283
Reaction score
2,194
Points
108
here is another article that medically says that Jesus(as) did not die on the cross.
Uh uh. What it says is this:

Concluding Remarks
There is objective clinical evidence to demonstrate that it is possible to make a mistake in the diagnosis of death in living people, even in expert trained hands.

Which is of course true. Doctors make mistakes. But it does not mean Jesus did not die on the cross? The fact that an event is remotely possible is not proof that’s the way it probably happened?
 

Thomas

Administrator
Admin
Messages
12,582
Reaction score
2,747
Points
108
A Christian response to the above article:

The three points: In order to survive the events of crucifixion:
1: Jesus must have been taken to be dead by the Roman soldiers when he was taken down from the cross.
2: Jesus would have needed to have been resuscitated back to life.
3: Someone must have seen Jesus alive after the events of the crucifixion.
The third point is – perhaps wisely – not addressed.


1: Is an incorrect diagnosis of death medically possible?
Short answer – yes, of course it is. That does not mean, however, that the Roman soldiers were wrong. Statistically, you'd have to say when someone is showing all the signs of being dead, they are dead.

The argument goes on:
All of the above cases go to show that even in the most experienced hands, a mistaken diagnosis of death can be made in patients who are still alive. Hence, it is quite plausible that the Roman soldiers made a mistake in declaring Jesus (as) dead after the events of the crucifixion. Even if the Roman guards were professionals in diagnosing death, as we can see above, even professionals can be mistaken. 
Yet all the above cases provide a very small and rare comparison to the numbers declared dead, who are dead. What the argument fails to do if offer any evidence that those present at the crucifixion mistakenly believed Jesus to be dead. It's a common logical fallacy.

Also, factor this:
"... The soldiers therefore came; and they broke the legs of the first, and of the other that was crucified with him. But after they were come to Jesus, when they saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. But one of the soldiers with a spear opened his side, and immediately there came out blood and water." (John 19:32-34)

So they thought Him dead, so why the stab? To make sure. If indeed the Roman solider was experienced, he'd know where to stab, and how.

The rest of the article offers clear and objective evidence of cases of mistaken diagnoses, and seeming spontaneous recovery, albeit a rare and exceptional circumstance. What it fails to do, however, is offer any objective reason for why we should assume such was the case with Jesus.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RJM

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,283
Reaction score
2,194
Points
108
Thank you to those who ask me questions.
Now if only you could try to answer some of them, lol ...

Another point from the article linked above, and already addressed in the rest of the 24 pages of this thread is -- to repeat -- the added effect of scourging upon the 'short crucifixion' scenario: Pilate has Jesus scourged to try to save him from crucifixion. Pilate tries to scourge Jesus instead of having to crucify him.

It was not intended as an addition to Jesus's crucifixion. Scourging was a terrible punishment in itself. It could probably in itself cause death, and certainly could hasten death for an exhausted crucified man. There is no evidence that scourging was normal before crucifixion.
 
Last edited:

Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi

Established Member
Messages
44
Reaction score
20
Points
8
  1. Jesus was the Messiah, the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies. He frequently made reference to himself as the suffering servant foretold in the Book of Isaiah (Matthew 8:17 & Isaiah 53:4; Luke 2:30 & Isaiah 52:10; Luke 22:37 & Isaiah 53:12). The Messiah of the Old Testament was, however, promised by God that he would not be killed (Psalms 34:19, Isaiah 53:10). How was it, therefore, that the Jews had succeeded in killing the Messiah if Jesus died on the cross?
 

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,283
Reaction score
2,194
Points
108
  1. Jesus was the Messiah, the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies. He frequently made reference to himself as the suffering servant foretold in the Book of Isaiah (Matthew 8:17 & Isaiah 53:4; Luke 2:30 & Isaiah 52:10; Luke 22:37 & Isaiah 53:12). The Messiah of the Old Testament was, however, promised by God that he would not be killed (Psalms 34:19, Isaiah 53:10). How was it, therefore, that the Jews had succeeded in killing the Messiah if Jesus died on the cross?
Jesus came as a very different messiah than the one who was expected, and He came not just for the Jews, but for everyone. The Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah
 

muhammad_isa

Save Our Souls
Messages
3,271
Reaction score
702
Points
108
Location
Worcester UK
Jesus came as a very different messiah than the one who was expected..
..not really..
A few Jews at the time, believed he is the promised Messiah that they expected, but many refused to accept his authority.
..and he is yet to return. He will then fulfill "what is expected", according to the Tanakh.

..and He came not just for the Jews, but for everyone..
..but all of his disciples were Jewish..

The Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah
I think you refer to the majority .. those who have embraced Islam or Christianity do.
..and then there are Messianic Jews who consider themselves Jewish Christians..
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top