30 verses of Bible say " Jesus did not die on the Cross".

[RJM]

VI – Coming Out of Blood and Water
“Then came the soldiers and brake the legs of the first and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs. But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water”. (John 19: 3-234)

The soldiers did not break the legs of Jesus for they took him for a dead man while actually, he was in a state of swoon, or just to silence the angry Jews he was declared be a ‘dead’ man. But one of the soldiers incidentally “pierced his side and forthwith there came out blood and water”, which is a surer sign of life for blood and water do not come out of a dead man’s body. There is much food for thought here for those who care to ponder over it.

There is medical evidence that blood and water would come out from the pericardial sac around the heart of a crucified person:

When they came to Jesus, He was already dead so they did not break His legs (John 19:33). Instead, the soldiers pierced His side (John 19:34) to assure that He was dead. In doing this, it is reported that “blood and water came out” (John 19:34), referring to the watery fluid surrounding the heart and lungs.

http://ronaldvhuggins.blogspot.com/2015/10/blood-and-water-pouring-from-jesuss.html
... the Ahmadiyyah representative, who was himself a doctor, insisted that the reference to blood and water coming out of Jesus's side could not indicate death, since, as every reader of good mystery stories knows, corpses don't bleed. So I put the question to Dr. Rob Cheeley, an old freind who runs a large medical work in the far east: "Question. The coming forth of blood and water in John 19:34. Corpses don't bleed. What do you see going on there?"

Here is his answer:

Yes, corpses don't bleed. However, fluids (basically blood OR water) gather in various spaces in the body if the death being suffered moves them there. So the idea that this is possible is not a problem at all. But then one must explain, in relation to HOW Christ died and WHERE He was stabbed with the spear, whether or not there should have been blood and water there, given the sort of death He suffered.

One thing to make clear in your mind as you seek to understand it, is that the diaphragm separates the chest cavity from the abdominal cavity. They are absolutely separated (unless the spear traversed from the abdominal cavity up through and into the chest cavity--a third possibility). So, then there are 3 different possibilities for the wound of the spear from which the blood and water came:

1) chest cavity wound (the blade went into the space outside the lung, might have gone into the lung, might have gone into the sack around the heart or the heart itself);
2) abdominal cavity wound (the blade went into the area which holds one's bowels, liver, spleen, bladder, kidneys);
3) both cavities pierced.

Most people who tackle this explanation say that the spear went into his thoracic (chest) cavity. I don't know why they say that. The bible says 'His side'. So it is hard to say. However, it does make more sense that the soldier would have done it as a diagnostic. If so, then the chest cavity makes more sense. Piercing the abdominal cavity really means nothing and diagnoses nothing, as one could be dead or alive and that action wouldn't really tell you anything. But what happens when one pierces the chest would be rather diagnostic ... etc
Read full article

Jesus couldn't have been dead for long. The piercing with the lance was deliberate; it was done to ensure that if Jesus was not dead, he definitely would be after a spear through the lung(s) and heart

 

[RJM]

VII – No Eye-Witness of Crucifixion
Three writers of the Gospels state that there was darkness over all the land from the sixth to the ninth hour and that there was an earthquake and the rocks were rent and the veil of the temple was rent in twain. It is a matter of common experience at the time of a severe dust-storm accompanied by an earthquake, people generally hasten to go home and they do not enjoy the luxury of a bloody sight-seeing. Now imagine for a moment, who could stand as an eye-witness to tell the story that Jesus actually died on the cross. The Jews, if, at all, there were any on the spot, must have run away at the sight of the rising storm and the shaking of the earth must have frightened them to turn on their heels and hasten to their homes. As to the disciples they had already fled from the scene of the crucifixion.

“Peter began to curse and to swear saying, l know not this man (Jesus) of whom you speak” (Mark 14:50)

“And they forsook him (Jesus) and fled” (Mark 14:71)

To be brief, there was no one present on the scene who could definitely and certainly say that he saw Jesus ‘giving up the ghost’. This is all mere conjecture and imagination.

First you post the blood and water passage from John 19:34
And then you say there was no witness?

But the next line from John reads:
And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
(John 19:35)
John 19 KJV Read full chapter
It is written as an eye witness account. Whether or not one believes it -- if you use John 19:34 as evidence, you have to also accept the above?

To be brief, there was no one present on the scene who could definitely and certainly say that he saw Jesus ‘giving up the ghost’. This is all mere conjecture and imagination.

In fact it seems to be your own weak theory that is 'all mere conjecture and imagination'
The soldiers knew their job. They knew when a person was dead or not. They did it all the time

Sorry: fail on points VI and VII

 

[RJM]

@Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi
Is it possible to ask why you are running this thread? What is the reason and purpose of this thread?

 

[Cino]

I'm certainly learning a lot about the Ahmadiyya beliefs regarding Jesus's crucifixion.

Trying to demonstrate holes or inconsistencies in their beliefs to other people seldom comes across well, I've learned.

Using the language of "I believe that..." definitely works better around here than that of "you should not believe that...". Regardless of the faiths in question.

 

[Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi]

I and my whole family believe that Jesus(as) was a true prophet of God, as Ibraheem(as), Moses(as), and Adam(as). Jesus(as) got true revelations from God. Teachings of Jesus(as) are TRUE. His prophecies are true. Jesus(as) preached the truth. Being, the true follower of Jesus(as), I want to unearth the truth, from his real teachings. I am also a truth seeker.

 

[Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi]

VIII – Mission to the Lost Sheep of Israel
“For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost”. (Luke 19:10)

“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd”. (John 10:16)

“And he said unto them, l must preach the Kingdom of God to other cities also; For therefore l am sent”. (Luke 4: 43)

“But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel”. (Matthew 15: 24)

From the quotations given above, it is clear that Jesus’s mission was to preach to all the twelve tribes of Israel that were scattered in the eastern countries extending from Palestine to India at the time of Jesus’s appearance. Of the twelve tribes of Israel, there were at that time, only two tribes in Palestine while the other ten were found scattered in the lands stretching from Palestine to the confines of India. Jesus cannot be said to have been successful in his mission if he does not address and preach to the ten lost sheep of Israel. Jesus’s supposed death on the cross at the early age of 33 gives a shattering blow to the mission on which he was sent.

The truth of the matter is that Jesus Christ, after his escape from the cross, did migrate to the East in search of the lost sheep for which there is ample historical evidence and is recently supported by the modern ‘finds’ of archaeology. Jesus found his lost sheep in Persia, Afghanistan, and Kashmir, preached to them, and comparatively, he was much more successful here than in Palestine. He died a natural death and was buried in Srinagar, Kashmir.

 

[Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi]

IX – Victory Over His Enemies
Addressing his disciples Jesus says :

Before, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the father is with me. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world you shall have tribulation but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world” (John 16:32,33)

Now what does Jesus’s victory consist of ? In his death on the cross or in his escape from the cross ? If he died on the cross then the Jews were successful because the very aim of their’s was to prove that he was false in calling himself the Messiah. They had in their support the Biblical statement “he that is hanged is an accursed of God” (Deut. 21:23)

But is we believe that he was taken down from the cross alive (in a state of swoon ofcourse) and he entered the heart of the earth alive, then he can rightly be said to have overcome his enemies and frustrated all their evil designs. Jesus says: “For as Jonah was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation”.

In other words, Jesus said to the Jews that God Almighty would save him from the clutches of death in the same way as He had saved Jonah from the belly of the whale. The similarity between the two incidents can be real and genuine only when Jesus enters the heart of the earth (grave) alive and comes out alive.

 

[Cino]

I and my whole family believe that Jesus(as) was a true prophet of God...

More power to you, but not what I meant.

What I am asking you to do is, in your posts in general, to qualify statements which might come across as controversial to believers of other religions, by clearly marking them as your beliefs, rather than implying some kind of absolute validity.

Believe me, this makes a big difference. And it is also considered good posting behavior around here.

 

[RJM]

I want to unearth the truth, from his real teachings. I am also a truth seeker.

But what if the truth you get contradicts your religious beliefs? Are you able to accept that?

As far as I'm concerned, the whole exercise depends on proving that because Jesus said apples, he meant oranges. I'm tired of it now. Good luck with it ...

 

[RJM]

VIII – Mission to the Lost Sheep of Israel

“For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost”. (Luke 19:10)

“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd”. (John 10:16)

“And he said unto them, l must preach the Kingdom of God to other cities also; For therefore l am sent”. (Luke 4: 43)

“But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel”. (Matthew 15: 24)

John 10:16 used to justify these categorical statements:

From the quotations given above, it is clear that Jesus’s mission was to preach to all the twelve tribes of Israel that were scattered in the eastern countries extending from Palestine to India at the time of Jesus’s appearance. Of the twelve tribes of Israel, there were at that time, only two tribes in Palestine while the other ten were found scattered in the lands stretching from Palestine to the confines of India. Jesus cannot be said to have been successful in his mission if he does not address and preach to the ten lost sheep of Israel. Jesus’s supposed death on the cross at the early age of 33 gives a shattering blow to the mission on which he was sent.

The truth of the matter is that Jesus Christ, after his escape from the cross, did migrate to the East in search of the lost sheep for which there is ample historical evidence and is recently supported by the modern ‘finds’ of archaeology. Jesus found his lost sheep in Persia, Afghanistan, and Kashmir, preached to them, and comparatively, he was much more successful here than in Palestine. He died a natural death and was buried in Srinagar, Kashmir.

Jesus says nothing about 12 tribes?
And then in the next two verses from the same passage, Jesus clearly explains that he is going to die:

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
(John 10: 17-18)
John 10 KJV Read full chapter

Whether not John is accepted as a valid scripture: having decided to use the John chapter 10 as reference – which parts are we deciding to accept, and which to reject?

If Jesus didn't know he was going to be rescued, he wasn't very good at his job as virgin born, sinless, miracle worker prophet -- and whether or not he did know -- after clearly telling his followers he was going to die -- it means he lied to his followers either before or after his crucifixion.

Again: not a greatly convincing argument that Jesus did not die on the cross
Myth busted, imo

 

[RJM]

IX – Victory Over His Enemies
Addressing his disciples Jesus says :

Before, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the father is with me. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world you shall have tribulation but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world” (John 16:32,33)

Now what does Jesus’s victory consist of ? In his death on the cross or in his escape from the cross ? If he died on the cross then the Jews were successful because the very aim of their’s was to prove that he was false in calling himself the Messiah. They had in their support the Biblical statement “he that is hanged is an accursed of God” (Deut. 21:23)

But is we believe that he was taken down from the cross alive (in a state of swoon ofcourse) and he entered the heart of the earth alive, then he can rightly be said to have overcome his enemies and frustrated all their evil designs. Jesus says: “For as Jonah was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation”.

In other words, Jesus said to the Jews that God Almighty would save him from the clutches of death in the same way as He had saved Jonah from the belly of the whale. The similarity between the two incidents can be real and genuine only when Jesus enters the heart of the earth (grave) alive and comes out alive.

These points have all been discussed earlier in this thread. It's just repetition, imo

 

[Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi]

In reply to Post#49, I want to say that I will accept the truth and change my faith. Now, I am posting the next part. Everyone is requested to reply back after reading.

X – His Prayer Was Heard
From the study of the Bible, we learn that God listens to the prayers of his apostles and saves them from trials and tribulations. Says the New Testament:

“The effectual fervent prayer of a religious man availeth much. Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. And he prayed again and the heavens gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.”(James 5: 16-18)

Again we read:

“And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said father I thank Thee that Thou hast heard me. And I knew that Thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it that they may believe that Thou hast sent me” (John 11:14, 42)

“And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto Thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what 1 will but what Thou wilt”. (Mark 14:36)

From the quotations given above it is clear that Jesus was terribly afraid of being put to the cross, so he fervently prayed that the bitter cup be taken away from him. Jesus passionately and fervently prayed to God that he might be saved the accursed death on the Cross, how could he then, say that he had overcome the world; in case he died on the Cross, the mission of his whole life would come to naught and wrongdoers could challenge his claim to prophethood. The thought of death on the cross was simply grating upon his soul.

Being a righteous prophet he was not afraid of mere death: he was certainly afraid of dying on the cross as such a death could be interpreted to mean an accursed death which was the very negation of his prophetic mission. He:

“In the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death and was heard in that he feared”. (Hebrews 5:7)

Hence we must presume that his earnest prayer was, no doubt heard and he miraculously escaped death by crucifixion and lived long enough to preach his mission to the lost sheep of the Israelites in the East:

“And he said unto them, I must preach The Kingdom of God to other cities also; for therefore am I sent”. (Luke 4:43)

Dear People!

These arguments prove that the idea of the crucifixion of Christ cannot be justified even from the Biblical point of view.

 

[RJM]

@Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi

Do you accept that Jesus told his followers he was going to die?

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
(John 10: 17-18)

There are several other passages
Was Jesus a liar?

 

[RJM]

Many of Jesus's followrrs went on to face death in cruel ways for their belief, beginning with Stephen the first martyr, and those countless others who died for their belief over the next two millennia .

Even Jesus's brother James believed in Jesus' death (and resurrection) and was murdered for his belief. Surely Jesus's own brother had a good idea of what was going on?

Wasn't it a bit unfair for sinless virgin born miracle worker prophet Jesus not to come out and say: Look people, I honestly believed what I told you at the time. I mean ... I really did think I was going to die on the cross, but -- uh -- Pilate ... well ... anyway ... sorry about the wrong prophecy there guys ...

 

[muhammad_isa]

Was Jesus a liar?

Please don't keep asking questions, in which the answer would be against the rules on the Abrahamic boards.
No, Jesus is not a liar .. but many of us very likely are .. whether knowingly or unknowingly.

 

[RJM]

Jesus is not a liar

Thanks. So?

 

[RJM]

Allowing his followers and apostles to believe he'd died, in order to protect Pilate, would be to lie by omission -- would it not? He'd allow his closest followers to believe he'd died on the cross, knowing they'd be killed for their belief, in order to protect Pilate?

If Jesus didn't know he'd be rescued, he wasn't a very good prophet?

Please try to address the question, not divert

 

[RJM]

Threads like this show a person can manipulate the gospels to mean whatever he needs them to mean, with selective extracts, ignoring bits that don't suit, or rejecting them as false. Read as a whole the New Testament clearly says Jesus died on the cross.

There may be dispute about the fact, but trying to use the NT to support the argument just isn't going to work, unless it's bent and manipulated out of recognition, imo

 

[Ella S.]

Threads like this show a person can manipulate the gospels to mean whatever he needs them to mean, with selective extracts, ignoring bits that don't suit, or rejecting them as false. Read as a whole the New Testament clearly says Jesus died on the cross.

There may be dispute about the fact, but trying to use the NT to support the argument just isn't going to work, unless it's bent and manipulated out of recognition, imo

To be fair, now you know how a lot of Jews feel about Christian typology.

 

[RJM]

To be fair, now you know how a lot of Jews feel about Christian typology.

Essentially, as I know it (mainstream) Jews do not believe Jesus existed at all? If at all he was simply some minor revolutionary who got himself executed and buried by history?

The death on the cross is not an issue? Jesus is insignificant. I don't think the debate in Judaism is whether Jesus was the Christ and survived the cross and was ascended, etc?

Followed by a question mark?