30 verses of Bible say " Jesus did not die on the Cross".

[RJM]

I don't think Judaism considers Jesus to be the be same sinless, virgin born, miracle working and bodily ascended messiah prophet that Islam does?

I don't think Judaism references the New Testament at all to justify its religious structure -- and certainly that it does not extend its energy against trying to correct what Christians like to believe about the trinity and Jesus is God?

Edit
Apologies if I missed the point @Ella S.
If so, I get it now
Yes ... what you say

 

[Cino]

I don't think Judaism considers Jesus to be the be same sinless, virgin born, miracle working and bodily ascended messiah prophet that Islam does?

While the Gospels and Epistles are not part of Jewish scripture (as the Quran is not a part of Christian scripture), there are many passages of the Hebrew Bible which are interpreted differently by Christians. Over the millennia, Christians have repeatedly endeavored to explain the Jewish scriptures to the Jews, in light of the Christian scriptures.

 

[Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi]

I believe Jesus(as) was a true prophet. Being a true follower of Jesus(as) I agree with all the real saying/wording of Jesus(as). As the Bible was composed nearly 100 years after the death of Jesus(as). There are some wordings/sayings/thoughts of disciples of Jesus, on which I do not believe 100% correct. I always prefer the sayings/wordings of Jesus(as) (who is my teacher), to his disciple's own thoughts/wording/sayings. Please send me any questions about my topic with the reference of the real words of Jesus(as). Thanks

 

[RJM]

Over the millennia, Christians have repeatedly endeavored to explain the Jewish scriptures to the Jews, in light of the Christian scriptures

Yes, I do get the point, it just took awhile for the penny to drop through my slow brain. Sorry, lol

 

[RJM]

I believe Jesus(as) was a true prophet. Being a true follower of Jesus(as) I agree with all the real saying/wording of Jesus(as). As the Bible was composed nearly 100 years after the death of Jesus(as). There are some wordings/sayings/thoughts of disciples of Jesus, on which I do not believe 100% correct. I always prefer the sayings/wordings of Jesus(as) (who is my teacher), to his disciple's own thoughts/wording/sayings. Please send me any questions about my topic with the reference of the real words of Jesus(as). Thanks

Can you post it here?
You could start a new thread if you think it will take this one off topic?

 

[Namaste Jesus]

While the Gospels and Epistles are not part of Jewish scripture (as the Quran is not a part of Christian scripture), there are many passages of the Hebrew Bible which are interpreted differently by Christians. Over the millennia, Christians have repeatedly endeavored to explain the Jewish scriptures to the Jews, in light of the Christian scriptures.

I look at it this way. Though I don't completely agree with Islamic teaching nor do I completely agree with Jewish teaching, I would not dream of trying to tell either their interpretations of their own scripture is wrong. Especially not on IO and certainly not on their own board. To borrow a quote from one of our recently deceased member's dad:

"A man's faith is his own. It's for no man to criticize nor for any man to take away" -Aussie's Dad

 

[Cino]

I would not dream of trying to tell either their interpretations of their own scripture is wrong.

Agreed, though the issue is made more complicated by the fact that different religions use the same scriptures but interpret them differently. The Baha'is also often annoy everyone by sharing their interpretations too enthusiastically.

Want me to talk to him?

 

[Namaste Jesus]

Agreed, though the issue is made more complicated by the fact that different religions use the same scriptures but interpret them differently. The Baha'is also often annoy everyone by sharing their interpretations too enthusiastically.

Want me to talk to him?

Nothing wrong with sharing your beliefs and opinions or how you or your faith interpret a particular scriptural passage, so long as you're not preaching on the other guys board that your beliefs are correct and his are not.

 

[RJM]

To me it's about sharing the finer points of other beliefs in direct conversation*. I'm not afraid to listen and respond. I don't feel threatened or offended. It's polite and @Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi is responding to invitation to post his points. No worries, imo. I wish all posters were so polite and willing to answer questions honestly in return.

A man's beliefs might be his own, but the point of coming to IO is to share and discuss those beliefs, and also to listen

Islam and Christianity will never agree about the central issue of Christ's death on the cross. Islam insists Christians have got it wrong; Christians believe the same about Islam.

It's the need to make the New Testament supply the argument that Christ did not die on the cross I find intriguing, because the New Testament so clearly does not. It's trying to make the foot to fit the shoe,

I'm starting to find these 30 'proofs' are beginning to just rehash the same points now

* as opposed to linking books or pasting tracts

 

[Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi]

Here are some new points for you about my topic.
https://www.alislam.org/jesus/

 

[RJM]

Here are some new points for you about my topic.
https://www.alislam.org/jesus/

Sorry. That won't do. You have simply posted a link to the official Amadiyya website. These are discussion forums. You said you were able to reference the real words of Jesus, different from the words recorded in the New Testament?

I always prefer the sayings/wordings of Jesus(as) (who is my teacher), to his disciple's own thoughts/wording/sayings. Please send me any questions about my topic with the reference of the real words of Jesus(as)

Please do not require me to wade through your entire website for the real words of Jesus. Perhaps at least you can cut and paste the real words of Jesus, as you believe them to be, and post (some of) them here for discussion?

 

[RJM]

@Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi
Would you like to discuss some of the rebuttals to the above first 10 of your 30 'proofs' that Jesus did not die on the cross. Do you have any reaction to the content of my posts? If you require me to investigate your website, I personally would need more than the above ten 'proofs' that have been posted here so far -- and any that follow would have to contain new points, not a rehash of what's already been proposed, imo

Peace brother

 

[Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi]

Corpses Do Not Bleed
An important piece of information is mentioned in the Gospel of John which supports the view that Jesus did not die on the cross:

“One of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water” (John 19:34).

Blood pouring out is a sign of intact circulation, with the spear injuring an arteriole. Note the words ‘sudden flow’ which implies blood pressure. The ‘water’ was perhaps pleural fluid, present between the rib cage and lungs.

As blood does not rush out of corpses, the quoted verse did present a problem to at least one Church Father, Origen. In his exegesis of John 19:34, he admitted that blood coagulates after death, but the flow of blood, in this case, constituted a miracle and thus needed no explanation. (Contra Celsus, by Origen, translated by H. Chadwick, Cambridge U).

The spear thrust into the side of Jesus was not meant as a kind of definitive blow, but as a rough (and actually inaccurate) indicator if death had occurred. If the intent were to kill, the soldier would have stabbed into the front of the chest to injure the heart. However, in the event the person was not on the cross for a sufficient length of time, death was usually caused by breaking the legs, as was done with the individuals hanging alongside Jesus.

 

[RJM]

@Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi
Is it possible to post the real words of Jesus mentioned above:

Please send me any questions about my topic with the reference of the real words of Jesus(as).

 

[RJM]

Corpses Do Not Bleed
An important piece of information is mentioned in the Gospel of John which supports the view that Jesus did not die on the cross:

“One of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water” (John 19:34).

Blood pouring out is a sign of intact circulation, with the spear injuring an arteriole. Note the words ‘sudden flow’ which implies blood pressure. The ‘water’ was perhaps pleural fluid, present between the rib cage and lungs.

As blood does not rush out of corpses, the quoted verse did present a problem to at least one Church Father, Origen. In his exegesis of John 19:34, he admitted that blood coagulates after death, but the flow of blood, in this case, constituted a miracle and thus needed no explanation. (Contra Celsus, by Origen, translated by H. Chadwick, Cambridge U).

The spear thrust into the side of Jesus was not meant as a kind of definitive blow, but as a rough (and actually inaccurate) indicator if death had occurred. If the intent were to kill, the soldier would have stabbed into the front of the chest to injure the heart. However, in the event the person was not on the cross for a sufficient length of time, death was usually caused by breaking the legs, as was done with the individuals hanging alongside Jesus.

However I responded to that earlier. The 'proof" does not agree with medical evidence, or with the meaning of the gospel

There is medical evidence that blood and water would come out from the pericardial sac around the heart of a crucified person:

When they came to Jesus, He was already dead so they did not break His legs (John 19:33). Instead, the soldiers pierced His side (John 19:34) to assure that He was dead. In doing this, it is reported that “blood and water came out” (John 19:34), referring to the watery fluid surrounding the heart and lungs.

http://ronaldvhuggins.blogspot.com/2015/10/blood-and-water-pouring-from-jesuss.html
... the Ahmadiyyah representative, who was himself a doctor, insisted that the reference to blood and water coming out of Jesus's side could not indicate death, since, as every reader of good mystery stories knows, corpses don't bleed. So I put the question to Dr. Rob Cheeley, an old freind who runs a large medical work in the far east: "Question. The coming forth of blood and water in John 19:34. Corpses don't bleed. What do you see going on there?"

Here is his answer:

Yes, corpses don't bleed. However, fluids (basically blood OR water) gather in various spaces in the body if the death being suffered moves them there. So the idea that this is possible is not a problem at all. But then one must explain, in relation to HOW Christ died and WHERE He was stabbed with the spear, whether or not there should have been blood and water there, given the sort of death He suffered.

One thing to make clear in your mind as you seek to understand it, is that the diaphragm separates the chest cavity from the abdominal cavity. They are absolutely separated (unless the spear traversed from the abdominal cavity up through and into the chest cavity--a third possibility). So, then there are 3 different possibilities for the wound of the spear from which the blood and water came:

1) chest cavity wound (the blade went into the space outside the lung, might have gone into the lung, might have gone into the sack around the heart or the heart itself);
2) abdominal cavity wound (the blade went into the area which holds one's bowels, liver, spleen, bladder, kidneys);
3) both cavities pierced.

Most people who tackle this explanation say that the spear went into his thoracic (chest) cavity. I don't know why they say that. The bible says 'His side'. So it is hard to say. However, it does make more sense that the soldier would have done it as a diagnostic. If so, then the chest cavity makes more sense. Piercing the abdominal cavity really means nothing and diagnoses nothing, as one could be dead or alive and that action wouldn't really tell you anything. But what happens when one pierces the chest would be rather diagnostic ... etc
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Jesus couldn't have been dead for long. The piercing with the lance was deliberate; it was done to ensure that if Jesus was not dead, he definitely would be after a spear through the lung(s) and heart

If the whole thing was a plot to bring Jesus down alive from the cross, why spear him? It makes no sense.

At all events it is a very serious life threatening wound. If he was still alive he would be bleeding profusely. Jesus's wounds would not be healed with a dab of myrrh and aloes. A man so badly wounded would not be walking around shortly afterwards, inviting Thomas to thrust a hand into the wound in his side.

It just doesn't fly.

Using John's gospel to support it does not work. The gospel does not support it. The gospel directly contradicts it.

Blood pouring out is a sign of intact circulation, with the spear injuring an arteriole. Note the words ‘sudden flow’ which implies blood pressure. The ‘water’ was perhaps pleural fluid, present between the rib cage and lungs.

As blood does not rush out of corpses ...

John does not say blood and water suddenly rushed out, just that it came out:

But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

The whole point of the passage is the spear thrust proved that Jesus was dead, if not before, certainly after, on top of all his other injuries.

An unconscious man crucified would die of asphixiation anyway. It is far from 'proof' that Jesus did not die, imo

 

[muhammad_isa]

The whole point of the passage is the spear thrust proved that Jesus was dead, if not before, certainly after, on top of all his other injuries.

An unconscious man crucified would die of asphixiation anyway. It is far from 'proof' that Jesus did not die, imo

Jesus performed many miracles.
It would not be difficult for Jesus to stay alive against the odds..
..any more than it would be for him to be raised from the dead.

 

[Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi]

Aloe and Myrrh
After the crucifixion, the body of Jesus came into the hands of his disciples Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus

The Gospel of John records that Nicodemus brought myrrh and aloes ‘about a seventy-five pounds in weight’ (John 19:39). These plants, particularly aloe plants, are considered medicinal and applied to wounds. It was used extensively in many ancient cultures is used even today to soothe open wounds. The Roman physician Pedanius Dioscorides (c 75 B.C) recommended aloe for wounds and skin conditions. Alexander the Great’s mentor, Aristotle, persuaded him to capture the island of Socotra to harvest the aloe plants for treating wounded soldiers.

Interestingly, the medieval near eastern classic textbook of medicine entitled Canon of Medicine by Avicenna mentioned an ointment termed Marhami Isa (Ointment of Jesus).

 

[Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi]

Wounded, but Alive
After the crucifixion, Jesus came under the care of his devoted followers who brought him into a spacious tomb.

If a man survived the death punishment, we would expect such a person to show clear evidence of the wounds. We would expect him to keep a low profile and move away from the place of crucifixion, as there may be the chance of re-arrest. Fear would be exhibited by his followers out of concern for their master.

The Gospel testimony leads precisely to that conclusion.

Jesus shows his wounds to Thomas (John 20:25-7), showing he did not have a supernatural, resurrected body, but a patient’s body.

He hurriedly traveled away from the locality of the crucifixion and chose to meet only his closest followers:

“Go tell my brothers to leave for Galilee, and they will see me there” (Matthew 28:10).

The followers of Jesus were frightened to the extent that they decided not to tell anyone about his emergence from the tomb (Mark 16:8).

Not once did Jesus appear before his persecutors or wandered through the center of Jerusalem asking people now to accept him as the resurrected Messiah who had atoned for their sins.

All we have is a man in his earthly body of flesh and bones (Luke 24:39) who suffered pangs of hunger (Luke 24:41) and stayed out of the limelight. In convincing his disciples that he had the same wounded body, he in effect was showing he never died as God saved him from the ordeal just as Jonah emerged alive from the fish (see “Sign of Jonah”).

 

[RJM]

@Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi

What about it? These 'proofs' have already been rebutted; they are just a rehash of previous ones. There has been no response to the rebuttals, but just a cut-and-paste of 'new' proofs that have already been disproved.

Therefore, to quote a popular UK TV show -- for that reason I'm out

 

[Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi]

Saved from a Fatal Blow
After Jesus supposedly ‘died’ on the cross a Roman soldier made a decision not to break the legs of Jesus while on the cross. The episode fulfilled a prophecy and was not without meaning.

The Gospel of John (19:36) tells us that the Scripture was fulfilled (based on Psalms 34:20) – a bone of his shall not be broken. The Roman soldier did not bother to break the legs of Jesus to hasten death since he thought he was already dead. Breaking the legs would have been devastating due to the severe trauma of blood loss and consequential hypovolemic shock by breaking one of the larger bones in the body, the tibia, in each leg.

The Scriptural attention to not breaking the legs can only be meaningful if the body was alive – it is a meaningless issue for a corpse. A fuller reading of Psalm 34, verses 19 and 20 underscores it:

“The righteous face many troubles but the Lord rescues them from each and every one. For the Lord protects them from harm – not one of their bones will be broken.”