30 verses of Bible say " Jesus did not die on the Cross".

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It is the author of the thread who uses John as authoritive. I am not claiming John is authoritive. I am responding to the post. Nor does its inclusion in the Christian section preclude debate about the authority of John's gospel.
That is what he says, in the gospel of John -- which the thread OP claims is authoritive.
He does not say.
So? How is it relevant here?
Again, the thread OP is using the blood-and-water crucifixion account from the gospel of John 19:34 as 'proof' that Jesus did not die on the cross.
This is disputed in the response. And then the next 'proof' is based on there being no eye-witness:

But in fact in the next line from the same blood-and-water passage, the writer claims to have been an eye-witness John 19:35. So the point isn't whether John is authoritive, or what anyone believes, but in debunking the contradictory nature of the 'proofs' presented in this thread, imo

Thanks for explaining my question about 'authoritive'.
I haven't responded to the OP much and I really should, but I can't dig up any 'proof' about anything, and I don't expect that the OP can. When folks start claiming provenance I go and put the kettle on. The best that I can manage is Indirect Evidence, Hearsay Evidence from oral tradition etc, and Secondary exhibits......... if it was easy then many of us wouldn't have spent years in trawling for the tiniest of clues.

I don't trust G-John, for so many reasons, whereas I do trust much of G-Mark because I do believe that this is an account of the memoirs of Cephas written by an author who was there as a partial witness. Cephas really didn't get on with Paul and I suspect that he wanted his truth to be recorded honestly. John sieves out the healings and actions of Jesus (imo) which he thought demeaned 'the Christ' and inserted miracles more suiting to the God of Earth and Heavens which he was promoting.

He didn't have a clue about when anything happened, his description of the last week is a fog, which might be why many Christians cannot tell me what Jesus and followers did on day 1, or 2 or....etc of that week.... they focus upon John.

I'll go and have a look at some more OP posts and try to be sociable.
 
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If the fluid in the lungs was going to kill him in such a very short time that it was necessary to pierce his lung with a spear in order to get him down alive -- no time even to get him to a doctor -- it would explain why they wouldn't need to break his legs and the crucifixion so comparitively short?

Otherwise would make no sense to add a punctured lung and profusely bleeding spear wound to Jesus's injuries, if the intention was to save his life?

So we can spike proof V?
Lol ...
Ah........ The crucifixion time was very very short......... I guess that we both know that 2-3 days was more common.
The convict kept self alive to self-torture by pushing up for more circulation and breath.

But executions were not allowed on Shabbat and before dusk the business had to be done with...I know that you know this but others might read it. Joseph of A went to see Pilate.
On his return the soldiers bust the convict's legs to either side and would have bust Jesus's ...they didn't 'test' the others, they just got on with it. But for Jesus they pierced a lung and cleared it..... it says so (blood and water etc), and they took him down and away. Only Magdalene, Salome and that other gutsy woman had the bravery to just go with them to see what happened. In Scotland there are three possible verdicts in any trial and in this case the indictments offered could only produce a 'not proven' verdict. That leave people to make up their own minds imo.

So the OP can believe/disbelieve it, but selling it to you or me is just pointless.
 
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please see this link too.
https://www.reviewofreligions.org/2...f-the-shroud-exhibition-on-all-walks-of-life/

My main article refers to the Holy Bible. This is an additional point for you. thanks

Hello Ijaz..... :)
There is no impact caused by the Turin Shroud.
Fragments of this cloth have been carbon dated and it didn't exist 2000 years ago.

So whoever the 'experts' were who were discussing its impact 'on all walks of life' I know for sure that they are tyros.
How can I be sure? Well, this shroud had precisely no impact upon my walk of life, a Deist, so I know it's all hot air and waffle. :)
 
But for Jesus they pierced a lung and cleared it..... it says so (blood and water etc), and they took him down and away
Still misses the point. If piercing the lung with a spear was so urgent that it couldn't wait for a doctor until Jesus was down, it makes nonsense of the fact that Jesus's crucifixion was too short to be fatal. If it was not urgent, why do it?
 
That was only my second to last sentence.

Scholars, for all their human faults, and the faults of those who like to hide hehind their authority - "say what you like about the tenets of scholarship, @badger, at least it's about reading carefully", to misquote Walter from the movie, the Big Lebowski.
OK....OK....... :)

But,....... :D

Somebody must tell me what a scholar is, sometime! One person might love Carrier who has 'academically proven' that the gospels are myth, mostly copied and drawn from Paul's letters and OT prophesy', another person might love Borg's beliefs about the gospels. etc etc....
So we have scholars who claim it's all myth (Dougherty, Carrier Elke, Frieke etc) and scholars who claim it's real (Meier, Erhmann etc) and 'real but human (Crosson, Mack etc) and it might be fun to study all these but why wouldn't a seeker go out there and do it themselves?

When people quote on scholar or another I have to suggest that those scholars come to us, here, and tell us their evidence rather than sing their names and ad hominem proposals.

...you've got me going now,...... and scientists! Them! :D
Scientists have found, concluded, discovered, decided, agreed...... I love these sells.
And who is a scientist? A Lab technician or a motor mechanic? An astronomer or an IT technician? Let us give real titles to these people rather than decide who can be allowed it to the science club.
 
Somebody must tell me what a scholar is, sometime!

You seem to have a notion already, judging by the long list of names you mention.

And who is a scientist? A Lab technician or a motor mechanic? An astronomer or an IT technician? Let us give real titles to these people rather than decide who can be allowed it to the science club.
Again, you paint a vivid picture, betraying a well-founded opinion, but feign ignorance. This can be a fun game for a while, but I think it gets old quick.

Edited to add: You are entitled to your low opinion of science and scholarship, of course. I'm merely pointing out that you are not addressing the points I raised. You seem to be answering someone else.

Edited further to add: Hope I'm not coming across too narrow-minded. I'm not here to convince you of my opinion of science and scholarship. Still trying to figure out whether I misunderstood you way back in the thread. I have no stakes in the larger topic discussed here.
 
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Dear friends, thank you for your replies. We believe in " Love for all Hatred for none". So, I want to show you the truth with the bible and logic, with my love. Maybe, I could not explain my topic, clearly to you.

Now, in other words, I am trying again to explain my topic.

1. The three hours suspension was insufficient to cause death. Sometimes the crucified man did not die until the third day.

2. Pilate wondered how Jesus could have expired so soon. (Mark 15:44).
His wonder was due to his experience that the time was not long enough to cause death. Pilate, Joseph, and the centurion—all three—were sympathizers of Jesus. They naturally wished to save him from death.

3. The two thieves who remained on the cross for the same space of time as did Jesus were both alive, and to kill them their legs were broken. Jesus was spared this ordeal. (John 19:32).

4. Blood and water flowed out immediately when the soldier with a spear, pierced his right side, as the ancient pictures show; a sure sign of life and the circulation of the blood. (John 19:34).

5. After he was taken down from the cross, it was not to his enemies, but to his friends, that his body was given. (John 19:38).

6. The haste with which his friends tried to secure his body bespeaks a desire on their part to save him whom apparently they had not yet given up for dead.

7. The steps taken by the Jews to have a guard posted at his sepulchre also shows that they were not sure of his death. Had they been certain of his death, it would not have mattered to them at all if his disciples had stolen his body. The reason was given, ‘lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He has risen from the dead, (Matthew 27:62), is ridiculous because they could have said if he were risen let him show himself to the people and then they could have re-arrested him. The real reason for their demand for the guard was that they were not sure of his death.

8. Pilate did not wish to have Jesus crucified, and nothing would have pleased him more than to see him delivered. And he actually gave every direct and secret aid to save Jesus. His wife’s vision must have induced him to do all that was in his power to deliver Jesus from his enemies.

9. The soldiers and the centurion who refrained from ensuring the death of Jesus by the breaking of his legs, as well as the soldiers who pretended to have fallen asleep during their watch, must have been, like their governor, sympathisers of Jesus.

10. The tomb in which Jesus was laid, hewn out of a rock, was like a chamber in which a number of men could remain without being suffocated. It belonged to a devoted friend who must have lavished care on him so as to restore him to consciousness and health.

On Sunday, the day next to the Sabbath, the Jews were free to visit the spot. But early in the morning while it was still dark Jesus was not there. The stone had been rolled away and the body was not seen in the sepulchre. Shortly afterwards he was seen by Mary, who, at first, took him for the gardener. ((John 20:15). Probably he had disguised himself in the gardener’s dress, so that he might not be recognised by the Jews and re-arrested and placed upon the cross again.

11. He sent a message to his disciples to depart for the distant provinces of Galilee, saying that he would go before them and would see them there. (Matthew 28:7). He left Jerusalem in a great hurry; for he knew the Jews would soon come to know that he had left the tomb and would start a search for him.

12. He took all precautions against being re-arrested by the Jews. He met his disciples only; not openly, but in secret, or in out of the way places. Even then he did not stay long with them, made no public appearance, (The Acts 10:41), and suffered hunger and thirst. When he met his disciples, he asked them whether they could give him something to eat, and he ate in their presence. (Luke 24:42).

To his disciples who thought him a spirit, he said: ‘Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself, handle me, and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have. (Luke24:38).

Thomas, who doubted that the other disciples had seen him, was asked to put his fingers in the prints of the nails. (John 20:27).

And the ‘ointment of Jesus’ or ‘ointment of the Apostles’ was prepared for Jesus by his disciples to heal his wounds.

All these factors clearly show that he came out of the sepulchre with his wounded physical body.

Accordingly, we found that there is no proof of Jesus’ death on the cross. Consequently, he could not have risen from the dead. A reasonable person can read that Jesus, when taken down from the cross, was not dead. He had swooned. Afterwards, he recovered. He came out from the sepulchre with his human body of clay.

If Jesus came out with a spiritual body, where had his mortal body gone?
 
On Sunday, the day next to the Sabbath, the Jews were free to visit the spot. But early in the morning while it was still dark Jesus was not there. The stone had been rolled away and the body was not seen in the sepulchre. Shortly afterwards he was seen by Mary, who, at first, took him for the gardener. ((John 20:15). Probably he had disguised himself in the gardener’s dress, so that he might not be recognised by the Jews and re-arrested and placed upon the cross again.
You forget this was a man who had been hanging with nails through his wrists and feet, and then speared through. It's not convincing he would be sitting on a rock a day later, whistling and swinging his leg and waiting for Mary

He'd been beaten and flogged. He was in a bad way. He would be in hospital for quite a long time. Even the hundredweight of myrrh and aloes prepared by Nicodemus for embalming wouldn't be enough, He'd need emergency surgery.

Infection was a major risk.

There are too many errors. It's totally unconvincing. You guys have got it all wrong. I'm afraid your conspiracy theory is too full of holes. The New Testament tells us Jesus died on the cross, whatever other religious writings might say
 
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You seem to have a notion already, judging by the long list of names you mention.


Again, you paint a vivid picture, betraying a well-founded opinion, but feign ignorance. This can be a fun game for a while, but I think it gets old quick.

Edited to add: You are entitled to your low opinion of science and scholarship, of course. I'm merely pointing out that you are not addressing the points I raised. You seem to be answering someone else.

Edited further to add: Hope I'm not coming across too narrow-minded. I'm not here to convince you of my opinion of science and scholarship. Still trying to figure out whether I misunderstood you way back in the thread. I have no stakes in the larger topic discussed here.
Hello Cino.......
You would be wrong to suggest that I have low opinion of science or scholarship........
Science is all about knowledge, and scholarship is all about studying.......

Please help me.......... if you would ask your question again then I will try to answer it directly.
 
You forget this was a man who had been hanging with nails through his wrists and feet, and then speared through. It's not convincing he would be sitting on a rock a day later, whistling and swinging his leg and waiting for Mary

He'd been beaten and flogged. He was in a bad way. He would be in hospital for quite a long time. Even the hundredweight of myrrh and aloes prepared by Nicodemus for embalming wouldn't be enough, He'd need emergency surgery.

Infection was a major risk.

There are too many errors. It's totally unconvincing..
G-d is able to do what He wills..
It is just a case of what is firmly established by the authors of the Bible .. what they believed.
 
Please refer post#168.

You are right that nobody can survive in these non-survival conditions. This is the greatest sign of Truth to jews as Jesus survived from the cross. As Jesus promised (Matthew 12:39,40) that he will survive as Jonah survived under the non-survival conditions, with the help of God. This is the true likeness of the sign of Jonah.

The greatest prayers of Jesus prayers were heard by God (Hebrews 5:7). Jesus survived.

Deuteronomy 21:22-23 says "For he that is hanged is accursed of God". According we can not believe Jesus died an accursed death.
Was Jesus the Cursed One?

Jesus said to his opponents: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. (1)

Again he says: ‘He that believeth not shall be damned. (2) Now the Pharisees believed that they caused Jesus to die an ‘accursed’ death and if this was true—and St. Paul testifies to it—then according to their law they proved conclusively that Jesus was a false prophet and that they were right in rejecting him and, therefore, will not be damned for it.

In view of the real meaning of the word ‘cursed’, a cursed man cannot be a prophet and beloved of God, for a man cannot be a cursed one unless his relationship with God is cut and his heart becomes empty of His love and knowledge; unless he is deprived too, of the mercy and grace of God. He must be in error like Satan and at enmity with God; thus, Satan is named the ‘Accursed One’.

Of a righteous and holy person like Christ, who claimed to be the light of the world—the beloved of God that God heard his prayers—can we believe that he was cursed of God and had no relationship with Him and that his heart was overcome by error and disbelief? Bearing in mind these facts, we must necessarily reject the possibility of Jesus’ death on the cross which would have made him as one accursed.
1. Matthew 23:13
2. Mark 16:16
 
Deuteronomy 21:22-23 says "For he that is hanged is accursed of God". According we can not believe Jesus died an accursed death.
Was Jesus the Cursed One?
... In view of the real meaning of the word ‘cursed’, a cursed man cannot be a prophet and beloved of God, for a man cannot be a cursed one unless his relationship with God is cut and his heart becomes empty of His love and knowledge; unless he is deprived too, of the mercy and grace of God. He must be in error like Satan and at enmity with God; thus, Satan is named the ‘Accursed One’
Jesus didn't go along with a lot of Deuteronomy stuff.
You quote Deuteronomy 21:22-23 but the passage directly before that one reads:

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Deuteronomy 21 kjv read full chapter
Do you think Jesus agreed with that?

Deuteronomy says to stone the adulteress, but Jesus said 'Let the one without sin cast the first stone' (John 21:7)

Deuteronomy 24:1-2 allows a man to divorce just by writing a note:

When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.

But in Mark 10:2-12 Jesus forbids divorce:

And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.

But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter. And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
Mark 10 kjv Read full chapter


There is much more in Deuteronomy that Christ opposed. It could go on all day

Christians, unlike Muslims, do not regard Christ as just a prophet -- even a special prophet. Christians regard Christ as The Incarnation – Emmanuel God With Us. A major purpose of Christ's mission was to bring the Spirit to the letter of the old law. He came to overturn the tables and to overturn a lot more else. He was full of surprises, was he not?

He explained: Neither do men put new wine into old wineskins: else the skins break, and the wine runneth out, and the skins perish: but they put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved. (Matt:9:17)

Concerning the resurrection and the 'spiritual body' in Mark 10: 24-25 Christ explains:

Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Mark 10 kjv read full chapter


It's obviously not possible to try to discuss the context of Christian ideas in a few lines here. It is necessary to have read the gospels to get a elementary grasp of the context. Picking out isolated passages to support whatever theory a person wants to put forward about Jesus is not convincing, as it means leaving aside other passages that do not support that theory

Just my opinion …
 
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I'd say hasn't read the gospels, doesn't understand what he read or is deliberately misrepresenting it. Not one supposed proof holds up to scrutiny.
 
If you have some time, please watch this video of BBC. But, my main focus is on the biblical points.
Ok. I watched it.

This is entirely speculative, a linked series of 'could have happened' and also biased in trying to prove the allegation. There are no 'experts' included in the discussion from the other side of the fence -- only those who basically agree are given a fair hearing.

The whole video is driven at 'proving' what it sets out wanting to establish. As always the New Testament evidence is picked to support the theory, and that against the theory is not included.

There are also plain mistakes, such as that Mark's gospel does not speak of the resurrection -- a common but incorrect supposition.

IMO video has several errors and is not convincing. BBC4 is not the news arm of the BBC. This 'magazine' video is not intended to be presented as factual. It's just speculation

There are some interesting thoughts here. I like the idea that Jesus visited India as a youth. But in general it's just a rehash of the same old debunked conspiracy theories about Jesus

Just my opinion ...
 
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Jesus didn't go along with a lot of Deuteronomy stuff.
You quote Deuteronomy 21:22-23 but the passage directly before that one reads:

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Deuteronomy 21 kjv read full chapter

Do you think Jesus agreed with that?
That depends. Would you say Jesus knew Hebrew? Would you say Jesus knew Jewish law?
 
That depends. Would you say Jesus knew Hebrew? Would you say Jesus knew Jewish law?
The gospels have Jesus teaching in the temple and on occasion he is addressed as Rabbi.
 
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I read the bible RSV 1952. Whenever I feel some differences between the sayings of Jesus and the sayings of disciples, then I prefer the sayings of Jesus (who is my true prophet).

In reply to post# 173, I post here some verses of the bible.

New International Version (Matthew 5:17)
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Paul (who wrote many books of the bible) says

King James Bible (Romans 3:7)
For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

So, if somebody thinks that Jesus died on the cross, it is clear from biblical teachings as
King James Bible (Galatians 3:13)
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

I want to request to those my friends who want deeper study with Biblical, historical, logical, and Quranic proofs, on my above topic, he can read the following book (which is available with free download). Thanks.
https://www.alislam.org/book/jesus-in-india/
 
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