Hi

Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
There has been much detail printed as to how God inspires the Messengers.
One link

https://bahai9.com/wiki/Maid_of_Heaven

Regards Tony
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I haven't read it yet. Perhaps later. Lots of words, few straight answers to plain questions, imo

The Godhead is everything -- it is a fish, it is a neutron star -- the Godhead contains all. But the Christ is the bridge between the Godhead and Man. He is Emmanuel -- God With Us. Ok, Baha'i believe Baha'u'llah is the return of the Christ, who was crucified and resurrected in Jesus, and who asked the Father to send the Holy Spirit after he was ascended. It's a big ask. Surely Baha'i should understand the scepticism?
Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
When we understand this, man can know why they are not sources of the Holy Spirit.
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Is this not a try at reducing Jesus to what you would like him to be? It's the Muslim take on Jesus. To Christians, Jesus is far more?
 
What on earth does this actually say?

https://bahai9.com/wiki/Maid_of_Heaven

(The húrís as a symbol of undiscovered inner meanings)
"We have digressed from the purpose of Our argument, although whatsoever is mentioned serveth only to confirm Our purpose. By God! however great Our desire to be brief, yet We feel We cannot restrain Our pen. Notwithstanding all that We have mentioned, how innumerable are the pearls which have remained unpierced in the shell of Our heart! How many the húrís of inner meaning that are as yet concealed within the chambers of divine wisdom! None hath yet approached them; — húrís, "whom no man nor spirit hath touched before."1 [Qur'án 55:56] Notwithstanding all that hath been said, it seemeth as if not one letter of Our purpose hath been uttered, nor a single sign divulged concerning Our object. When will a faithful seeker be found who will don the garb of pilgrimage, attain the Ka'bih of the heart's desire,
 
RJM said:
What on earth does this actually say?
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Attaining spiritual insight has a long tradition of erotic metaphor. It's a bit like having sex for the first time, there is a sense of initiation, of irreversible change, of becoming mature, "putting behind childish things"... This passage implies that there are many more such moments down the line. A repeating cycle of mystical fruitions, maybe?

At least, that is what I get from it. But Baha'is tend to be politely distanced when I want to talk about the mystical vibe of their scriptures.

Do you enjoy Sufi poetry, @RJM? There are plenty of parallels in style and symbolism with the Baha'i corpus.
 
Cino said:
Attaining spiritual insight has a long tradition of erotic metaphor. It's a bit like having sex for the first time, there is a sense of initiation, of irreversible change, of becoming mature, "putting behind childish things"... This passage implies that there are many more such moments down the line. A repeating cycle of mystical fruitions, maybe?

At least, that is what I get from it. But Baha'is tend to be politely distanced when I want to talk about the mystical vibe of their scriptures.

Do you enjoy Sufi poetry, @RJM? There are plenty of parallels in style and symbolism with the Baha'i corpus.
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it's not exactly the Sermon on the Mount or the parable of the prodigal son though, is it? One gospel paragraph seems to express ten pages of this stuff?
 
RJM said:
it's not exactly the Sermon on the Mount or the parable of the prodigal son though, is it? One gospel paragraph seems to express ten pages of this stuff?
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Well, to me it reads more like St. John of the Cross, or Teresa of Avila, or the Cloud of Unknowing, than a Gospel passage. It's more like the Song of Songs, in a way?
 
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RJM said:
The Godhead is everything -- it is a fish, it is a neutron star -- the Godhead contains all. But the Christ is the bridge between the Godhead and Man. He is Emmanuel -- God With Us. Ok, Baha'i believe Baha'u'llah is the return of the Christ, who was crucified and resurrected in Jesus, and who asked the Father to send the Holy Spirit after he was ascended. It's a big ask. Surely Baha'i should understand the scepticism?
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Simply, in a few words. God in Essence is unknowable to us. God does not enter creation.

A metephor is like the painter, who is the source of the art, but not in the picture in a material sense.

So God, to be known, created. The Holy Spirit is behind creation, the first and the last cause, the beginning and the end, the Alpha and Omega.

This Holy Spirit contains all the Names of God, all the attributes that we can know God by. Thus in each age a perfect man is created, born of that Holy Spirit as per God's Will and plan for humanity. That are not "men" (mankind) like us.

They become the source of all we know about God, all praise of God goes via the Messengers.

They are to us "The self of God", in the knowledge that they are not God in Essence, but what God shows us in attributes.

Regards Tony
 
RJM said:
What on earth does this actually say?

https://bahai9.com/wiki/Maid_of_Heaven

(The húrís as a symbol of undiscovered inner meanings)
"We have digressed from the purpose of Our argument, although whatsoever is mentioned serveth only to confirm Our purpose. By God! however great Our desire to be brief, yet We feel We cannot restrain Our pen. Notwithstanding all that We have mentioned, how innumerable are the pearls which have remained unpierced in the shell of Our heart! How many the húrís of inner meaning that are as yet concealed within the chambers of divine wisdom! None hath yet approached them; — húrís, "whom no man nor spirit hath touched before."1 [Qur'án 55:56] Notwithstanding all that hath been said, it seemeth as if not one letter of Our purpose hath been uttered, nor a single sign divulged concerning Our object. When will a faithful seeker be found who will don the garb of pilgrimage, attain the Ka'bih of the heart's desire,
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That is saying there are very few people available to understand the Majestic Truth found in the Word of God. That much remains unknown, as our capacity to understand is not yet sufficient.

It is the holder of all knowledge wanting to part all that capacity, yet not able to do so, as we blind ourselves to it.

These passages are beautiful, Majestic, full of promise, so that just shows for us truth is relative.

Baha'u'llah had many of his writings destroyed, as humanity was not ready for them. Yet we still have over a hundred columes to pursue.

I too could talk for hours on this, yet I too must remain silent and in a minute way, share in the despair of what that passage is offering.

Regards Tony
 
Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
Yes indeed I do.
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But.......

Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
So the answer to your other interpretation of the bible saying Jesus is the only way to God is not supported by what Jesus said in that passage, nor by what Peter said.
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So Jesus the only begotten Son of God is not the only way? Can we put our faith in other "messengers" and still have Salvation?

Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
The way to God is Christ. Christ means "Annointed One". Jesus was Annointed of the Holy Spirit to give humanity a Message of Love, Peace and Unity. Jesus offered that flesh amounts to nothing and it is the Spirit that is the Light and Life.
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So Jesus is not the Lam, dying on the cross in the flesh shedding His blood for our sins was not necessary?
Can you tell which other messengers did what Jesus did for us?

Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
So the return of Jesus, is the return of "Christ", it is God "Annointing" a Messenger.
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Why are you separating Jesus and Christ? the return of Jesus is the return of Jesus the Son of God and He is the Christ as well. The Bible tells us that Jesus is God , not just a messenger.

Jesus did say this very clearly... John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." The Bible does not suggest that we can go to the Father through any other anointed messenger.... would you consider this text also not inline with what Peter said? Who should we believe, Jesus or Peter? imo both.

Tx, Tony
 
Yahweh kid said:
But.......

So Jesus the only begotten Son of God is not the only way? Can we put our faith in other "messengers" and still have Salvation?

So Jesus is not the Lam, dying on the cross in the flesh shedding His blood for our sins was not necessary?
Can you tell which other messengers did what Jesus did for us?

Why are you separating Jesus and Christ? the return of Jesus is the return of Jesus the Son of God and He is the Christ as well. The Bible tells us that Jesus is God , not just a messenger.

Jesus did say this very clearly... John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." The Bible does not suggest that we can go to the Father through any other anointed messenger.... would you consider this text also not inline with what Peter said? Who should we believe, Jesus or Peter? imo both.

Tx, Tony
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You provided your preferred answers in the way you constructed your questions. ;)

I will ask you a question. Is there only one Lamb?

I have an answer for myself, as I know of the Bab. Are of aware what happened to the Bab?

Regards Tony
 
Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
Are of aware what happened to the Bab?
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Well, Bab was killed for propagating a new theology.
Bab's legacy was taken over by Bahaollah, the 19th Century uneducated Iranian.
Bahaollah survived because he left Iran and because of the political situation in Iran at that time.
(The British, the Russians and the Ottoman's wanted him to survive to create disturbance in Iran)
There is no proof for any God or any prophet / son / messenger / manifestation / mahdi, whatsoever. If you have any, kindly mention.
 
Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
As was Jesus. The Bab was another Lamb as all the events that happened to Jesus also happened to the Bab, yet the Bab mission lasted twice as long as Jesus.

Regards Tony
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Many have died for their words and beliefs
 
No. Bab was different. He was the Mahdi, the returning Jesus, herald of the other Iranian, as per Bahai belief. Is that right, Tony?
Or Bahaollah was the returning Jesus? I am a bit confused here.
 
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@Tone Bristow-Stagg
I'm not being deliberately obstructive. But it is the very long-winded wordiness of the whole business that has such a negative effect on me. If Baha'u'llah is the Christ, he could express himself in better terms, imo

Majestic and poetic words mean nothing in themselves. After all this I'm still uncertain about the value of the central message: There will be peace on earth under Baha'u'llah. One world, One religion'

Is that it?

It doesn't touch my heart and soul. It doesn't reach me in the way the parables and sacrifice of Jesus do. It's not for me. It's like some sort of manifesto. It really doesn't reach me at all.
 
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RJM said:
It doesn't touch my heart and soul. It doesn't reach me in the way the parables and sacrifice of Jesus do. It's not for me. It's like some sort of manifesto. It really doesn't reach me at all.
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Good thing this place is not a competition of religions, then. ;)
 
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