There is no justice if atheism is true

[RJM]

Your faith is knowledge?
So why call it a faith?

Your words ...

They were warned how things would go wrong of they ignored them

Who warned them?

Angels defend the humble, lost and broken souls. The proud and arrogant fall into their own nets, imo ...

 

[Ahanu]

Maybe you are idealizing Atheism into some coherent ideology, like a religious doctrine, but without a god?

I don't think it is a useful or accurate understanding of atheism. Don't let the "-ism" fool you into assuming that there is some kind of scripture, or (a-)theology, or a governing body, or anything of the kind.

Maybe I am setting parameters?

Atheists eschew immaterial realities - for whatever exists outside of our sense perception is not real. Therefore, it would be strange to me for an atheist to adopt, say, panpsychism for an explanation of mind. That is tantamount to opening the door for immaterial realities to exist and contradictory to atheism.

Likewise, I also think it would be strange for an atheist to adopt certain moral values assuming nature is all there is. Just my opinion. It is Nietzsche's opinion too.

Is it really the case that atheists simply accept there is no God? Besides that, everything else is on the table?

I know of no atheist that accepts life after death, for example. There are science fiction writers that are atheists who toy around with the idea using advanced technology and simulated worlds. Then again, simulated worlds open up the door for immaterial realities in my opinion. Once you accept immaterial realities beyond your sense perception, you reject your reality as the ultimate one, opening the door for the Real with a capital R.

Have you considered the possibility that Nietzsche was something like a prophet, in the sense of prophesying what could happen, a descriptive rather that prescriptive thing?

Sadly, we only receive Nietzsche through his sister, who destroyed some of his writings and had rather proto-faschist leanings. She loved passages like the one you quoted. So it is always good to keep in mind that we have a distorted version of his work, when reading him

Also, he is probably read by more believers, for the shock value, than unbelievers, I would say.

Let me repeat, atheists are not invested in presenting or offering spiritual teachings, as a whole. That is a thing believers do. Nothing wrong with either approach, I feel.

On the Genealogy of Morality, which I have read in its entirety, was published in November 1887 - a few years before his insanity in 1889. His sister pretty much monopolized his writings for the last eleven years of his life from 1889 to 1900, so I know of no scholar that questions the main arguments in his masterpiece. Do you?

 

[Ahanu]

Have you considered the possibility that Nietzsche was something like a prophet, in the sense of prophesying what could happen, a descriptive rather that prescriptive thing?

Yes, something like a prophet of disbelief. I think we cannot regard everything he said as one or the other.

 

[Ahanu]

Also, he is probably read by more believers, for the shock value, than unbelievers, I would say.

I should add one reason why I am interested in Nietzsche.

I was first introduced to him by a British atheist who used to be my roommate a few years ago.

He brought Nietzsche up in a conversation about ethics. That was my first time ever learning about his ideas specifically. I asked what I should read first. He suggested On the Genealogy of Morality.

 

[Cino]

Atheists eschew immaterial realities - for whatever exists outside of our sense perception is not real.

Money is an immaterial reality. I don't mean coins or bank notes or credit cards or account statements - these are icons, representations, but they are not "money".

Stories are immaterial. Ideas. Mathematics. Justice.

I accept immaterial realities, as do other atheists. I just don't have a god, on any plane, material or immaterial.

It is true that I am a materialist, in a basic sense, in that I am convinced that life, consciousness, immaterial realities etc. require and arise out of matter and energy, not the other way around. Panpsychism is a rather "idealist" (as opposed to "materialist") idea.

The question whether there are atheists who are not materialists is interesting. I have not met any so far.

Likewise, I also think it would be strange for an atheist to adopt certain moral values assuming nature is all there is. Just my opinion. It is Nietzsche's opinion too.

The kind of moral value which is formulated, "God says not to murder", I agree Those don't work without gods.

The kind of moral value which is based on a mutual agreement not to murder one another, what's your issue with seeing that it is just a plain good idea, obvious as daylight, and one can just adopt it without referring to a god?

If you had no god to keep you from doing so, whom would you murder first? How would you justify it to yourself? I think it was thoughts like these Nietzsche was exploring. He was, after all, the son of a priest.

On the Genealogy of Morality, which I have read in its entirety, was published in November 1887 - a few years before his insanity in 1889. His sister pretty much monopolized his writings for the last eleven years of his life from 1889 to 1900, so I know of no scholar that questions the main arguments in his masterpiece. Do you?

No, but while I have read some of his work, it was for my personal entertainment, not serious study.

When you speak of scholars not questioning his arguments, what do you mean by that?

 

[badger]

Your words ...
Who warned them?

Jehovah did.

EXODUS {18:19} Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God: {18:20} And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.

LEVITCUS {20:22} Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. {20:23} And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and
therefore I abhorred them. {20:24} But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I [am] the LORD your God, which have separated you from [other] people.

There never was justice within Christianity, methinks. It never kept those laws.
There were times when Popes could keep partners, sire children, command armies, commit murders.
Priests in some lands received lighter (or no) sentences for crimes.
Positions in Church and Diocesan Courts could be purchased.

So there was no justice in much of Christianity anyway.
If a person is just, has integrity, then it's all about them and not so much about what they believe in.

 

[RJM]

Jehovah did.

God did?

there was never justice within Christianity methinks

No good ever came from Christianity? The world would be a better place? I'm done here ...

 

[muhammad_isa]

There never was justice within Christianity, methinks. It never kept those laws.

There is evidence that the ten commandments were taught from early on..
..but I would agree that the Catholic church took many centuries in establishing its official stance on matters of sin and morality.

 

[RJM]

I love people telling Catholics what Catholics believe, who've never met a Catholic or been inside a Catholic church and who reject most of the New Testament and have never read the earliest Christian Pauline writings, which came before the gospels ... right on, chaps

 

[Cino]

Jehovah did.

But to stay with that narrative, us humans had to talk ethical sense into God on multiple occasions. No more Great Floods, no raining fire&brimstone on cities where good people live, no more sending plagues because of a bruised divine ego, no more wagers with the devil about how much misfortune a human can bear...

 

[badger]

God did?
No good ever came from Christianity? The world would be a better place? I'm done here ...

In Exodus, Leviticus and a couple of Psalms, .........Jehovah.

 

[badger]

But to stay with that narrative, us humans had to talk ethical sense into God on multiple occasions. No more Great Floods, no raining fire&brimstone on cities where good people live, no more sending plagues because of a bruised divine ego, no more wagers with the devil about how much misfortune a human can bear...

Well......those amazing laws were surely written by ...human hands. There have been and will be great floods, raining fire, plagues and collapsing terrains.....all thanks to Nature's chaos, but I can understand how a superstitious mankind figured out it was all about divinity .
We live within the chaos of fate,imo.

 

[badger]

There is evidence that the ten commandments were taught from early on..
..but I would agree that the Catholic church took many centuries in establishing its official stance on matters of sin and morality.

Christianity dumped hundreds of OT laws, and the poor laws mostly went my the board with them.

 

[RJM]

Christianity dumped hundreds of OT laws, and the poor laws mostly went my the board with them.

Christians aren't Jews? They don't care what Muslims (or deists or anyone else) tell them what they should believe? Astounding. Tell me more, lol ...

 

[RJM]

The need to break and kill and to belittle is emergent from your own soul, not from Christ, imo

That is what you want. You crave Armageddon. Death of people...

 

[muhammad_isa]

That is what you want. You crave Armageddon. Death of people...

I don't think that people want Armageddon.
..it just seems difficult to avert,

 

[badger]

Christians aren't Jews? They don't care what Muslims (or deists or anyone else) tell them what they should believe? Astounding. Tell me more, lol ...

No....... Christians aren't Jews......
But Jesus supported the laws and Christians don't?
This is a thread about Justice....... I'm trying to stick to the subject but you seem to want to add to my words?
And you're laughing out loud? I don't get your point.

 

[badger]

The need to break and kill and to belittle is emergent from your own soul, not from Christ, imo

That is what you want. You crave Armageddon. Death of people...

Who exactly are you talking to, here? .....and accusing?

 

[RJM]

No....... Christians aren't Jews......
But Jesus supported the laws and Christians don't?
This is a thread about Justice....... I'm trying to stick to the subject but you seem to want to add to my words?
And you're laughing out loud? I don't get your point.

You have not read Paul. Circumcision was not a requirement for gentile Christians. It was agreed by Peter, James and John. Paul would preach to the gentiles that salvation is by faith, not by the law. That is the freedom bought by Christ. Luther even added a word to a passage in the Pauline writings to read 'only' by faith.

You miss the whole point of Christ's teaching. Believe what you want, but you should not be telling Christians what to believe IMO

 

[RJM]

Who exactly are you talking to, here? .....and accusing?

Those who advocate it

@badger
Of course there is justice in Christianity. There will always be people who abuse it. Wolves in sheep's clothing. But that doesn't cancel Christ's teaching, in the sermon on the mount, for instance.