Try the Trinity.

[otherbrother]

I never bothered to find out exactly how the Trinity "God" was, shall I say...constructed...
To the Christian it is not a problem to say God consists of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
To them it is one God.

Then I was confronted by Muslim, and realized, to my shock, that Christians have a hard time to explain the Trinity.

Well, I previously sumerized the Bible and read the Quran a few times, and I decided to see if there is an easy understandable way to explain the Trinity, and to also find out if the Trinity is false, or really a divine god.

Well, I did my learning and have to test my knowledge with religions that do not believe in the Trinity, to validate my understanding.
This is my main reason why I wanted to join this forum.
To test the idea of a Triune God.

Whats the use if I believe in something, and there might be facts I dont know about that will destroy these "Facts".

If anyone wants to ask questions or needs some clarification, I will be happy to have a serious but friendly debate.

What if God is a kind of Super Quanta that can act like a wave (Holy Ghost/Spirit) or a particle (being: Divine Being as Father, Incarnate Being as Son).
If we are looking or calling from the attitude of being an individual physical being, the Super Quanta would act like a particle/being in order to interface a similarly acting entity. But even in discrete being form, it would maintain greater quantum coherence (the wave function not collapsing as much) as the particular being calling or looking. It would relate as a Divine Other that helps restore some of the lost quantum coherence. Feelings of greater wholeness and abundance would ensue,
But if the person/being were to be heavily (and heavenly?) identifying with the Super Quanta’s wave characteristics (Holy Spirit), then prayer/calling and perception would act like a PROCESS or STATE more than a thing/being. It would seem like a seamless aspect of the True Self, instead of an Other.

The following poem touches on this both/and (Being and Process) nature of the Super Quanta (God):


Call



You want to know me

And call me by name?

First, know that True Self

And Divine Other

Are one and the same.

 

[OupaPiet]

What if God is a kind of Super Quanta that can act like a wave (Holy Ghost/Spirit) or a particle (being: Divine Being as Father, Incarnate Being as Son).
If we are looking or calling from the attitude of being an individual physical being, the Super Quanta would act like a particle/being in order to interface a similarly acting entity. But even in discrete being form, it would maintain greater quantum coherence (the wave function not collapsing as much) as the particular being calling or looking. It would relate as a Divine Other that helps restore some of the lost quantum coherence. Feelings of greater wholeness and abundance would ensue,
But if the person/being were to be heavily (and heavenly?) identifying with the Super Quanta’s wave characteristics (Holy Spirit), then prayer/calling and perception would act like a PROCESS or STATE more than a thing/being. It would seem like a seamless aspect of the True Self, instead of an Other.

The following poem touches on this both/and (Being and Process) nature of the Super Quanta (God):


Call



You want to know me

And call me by name?

First, know that True Self

And Divine Other

Are one and the same.

I like open thinking and breaking the barriers.
Think about this. When YHWH appeared to Israel on Mount Horeb, He was an intense light. Moses was not allowed to look at him from the front, and God held His hand in front of Moses to guard him from burning up.
When Moses arrived back at camp, he was radiating light! They had to cover him up with sheets.
Adam and Eve were created in YHWH's image, and their bodies had the same construction as God's, covered in light!
When Jesus ascended to heaven, He was covered in a bright light.
Now, what I say now is my own opinion, and not a claim that the Bible say as such.
The Spiritual realm where God, Jesus and the resurrected dwells, are perhaps your Quanta, energy, or something we might regard as such.

Now, what if this means that we are all interconnected by this substance with our spirit?
Going back to Moses, if we dont have a cleansed spirit, free from corruption, it will just connect with the clean substance of God, and will continue to "Burn".
Does this mean that when we die, our spirit ends up at a place (Gehenna)where this substance is subjected to gravitational pull? All the Spirits are captive by it?
And being a "Cleansed" spirit, covered by the "blood of Christ", we will be safe?
What about those Unclean spirits who rejected God, they are not protected by the "Light of Jesus".
This means we have something like Anti-Matter, or Anti-energy, that will continue to burn, but being energy, it can not be destroyed.

Eternal damnation or Salvation.

Lets go further with my thought.
If God is this energy, which radiates light, and He created everything as Adam and Eve appeared to be, then one can also postulate that the whole universe was originally this energy, that underwent gravitational pull, creating trillions and trillions of gravitational points, pulling this substance to places where Galaxies and solar systems would form.
Due to its mass increase, matter will be the next step forming.
Life would shape from this energy which God would manipulate into Humans, animal and plant.
Then the fall of Adam's sin.
The immortal body would start to corrupt, blood will replace the light, and flesh will form from this energy particles.
Not only in the living bodies, but in all matter, changing the whole Universe into physical Matter.

So much for my wild thinking!

 

[otherbrother]

Great, now I understood that the “Being” of God was a being, not in the image of MAN, but a Being covered in light! AND this Being consisted of 2 things so far as I understood…The Being itself who had a Spirit, and this Spirit could exit the being, and also create as did the Being!

Kinda fits with my Super Quanta idea. Body of light (like a packet of energy?) And its ability to act like a particle (body) or like a wave (spirit) .
In The Undivided Universe, David Bohm and Basil Hiley think there is evidence of layered overall reality: regular (can’t recall what they called it, probably something like “explicate”) , “implicate (sp?) order” (quantum realm), and deepest being a “super implicate”’order that they deduced to be behind the “active information” (sub atomic particles directing each other’s movements) . The super implicate order would likely be from a different dimension constituted of something like “mind,” at least when conceptualized from this layer/side.
So perhaps the hypothesized Super Quanta is just the way the Other Dimension, possibly Mind, appears and acts as it enters the physical dimension. It acts more like energy when it enters. This might be considered the Creator aspect of an Ultimate Reality? Since it would be the only thing that we can relate it to in physical Creation. Energetic fields, gases, and plasma stuff may be in between Mind and the harder objects (classical objects) of Creation. Spirit and even Heaven may be a gateway between physical reality and another dimension that seems like Mind. Perhaps even our minds have a connection to that deeper or other non physical dimension or “side.”
All wild speculation, but at least loosely informed by the thoughts of other thinkers.

 

[otherbrother]

I like open thinking and breaking the barriers.
Think about this. When YHWH appeared to Israel on Mount Horeb, He was an intense light. Moses was not allowed to look at him from the front, and God held His hand in front of Moses to guard him from burning up.
When Moses arrived back at camp, he was radiating light! They had to cover him up with sheets.
Adam and Eve were created in YHWH's image, and their bodies had the same construction as God's, covered in light!
When Jesus ascended to heaven, He was covered in a bright light.
Now, what I say now is my own opinion, and not a claim that the Bible say as such.
The Spiritual realm where God, Jesus and the resurrected dwells, are perhaps your Quanta, energy, or something we might regard as such.

Now, what if this means that we are all interconnected by this substance with our spirit?
Going back to Moses, if we dont have a cleansed spirit, free from corruption, it will just connect with the clean substance of God, and will continue to "Burn".
Does this mean that when we die, our spirit ends up at a place (Gehenna)where this substance is subjected to gravitational pull? All the Spirits are captive by it?
And being a "Cleansed" spirit, covered by the "blood of Christ", we will be safe?
What about those Unclean spirits who rejected God, they are not protected by the "Light of Jesus".
This means we have something like Anti-Matter, or Anti-energy, that will continue to burn, but being energy, it can not be destroyed.

Eternal damnation or Salvation.

Lets go further with my thought.
If God is this energy, which radiates light, and He created everything as Adam and Eve appeared to be, then one can also postulate that the whole universe was originally this energy, that underwent gravitational pull, creating trillions and trillions of gravitational points, pulling this substance to places where Galaxies and solar systems would form.
Due to its mass increase, matter will be the next step forming.
Life would shape from this energy which God would manipulate into Humans, animal and plant.
Then the fall of Adam's sin.
The immortal body would start to corrupt, blood will replace the light, and flesh will form from this energy particles.
Not only in the living bodies, but in all matter, changing the whole Universe into physical Matter.

So much for my wild thinking!

Wow! I hadn’t read your own above speculations when I made my last speculative comment, but our thoughts seem fairly closely aligned !

 

[otherbrother]

I would offer Baha'u'llah has explained this topic.in detail and shown how God, the Holy Spirit and the Messengers are indeed One.

The challenge for Christians becomes the flesh body of Jesus.

View attachment 3206
This diagram is the explanation.

As noted by the diagram, God does not descend into creation and each of the Mirrors are "Christ" an "Annointed One" in the age God chooses to give a Message. Thus Christ is the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, the Alpha and Omega.

A Fuller explanation available.

Regards Tony

Like that multiple anointed ones line of thought. Highly “spiritual?” Studying a book about the Bible book Romans. I think Paul could have benefited greatly from the concept of “spirituality” when trying to explain his theology and to try to reconcile it with earlier Jewish thought

 

[OupaPiet]

Wow! I hadn’t read your own above speculations when I made my last speculative comment, but our thoughts seem fairly closely aligned !

Please remember, what I said are just suppositions deducted from the Bible.
The Bible does not say what I think.

in 1925, Hubble found that all the galaxies were moving away from each other.
His discoveries was already written up by Emmanuel Kant in 1755 in his essay of the History of the heavens, which incidentally he deducted from Genesis.
His thinking was that if the Earth changed into Land and Sea on the morning of the third day, it must have been a muddy ball on day 2.
This meant that the "Firmament" with waters below and above, was the surface of the Mud ball, with mud below, and gasses above.
This means the Earth was a huge collection of Gas Liquid and solids on the morning of Day 2
Then it all made sense.
The Earth was a collection of Gas, Liquid and Solids before day one, that turned into a sphere due to its gravitational forces.

Sort of a reverse engineering in reverse! Going from day 3, imaging how the earth would appear on day 2 and 1 and before the Sun started to shine.

He then postulated that it was gravitational forces that created the spherical Earth, precipitating water, Gas and Solids into Atmosphere, Land and sea.

The turning point for Him was, when he thought about the Solar system, he deducted that it must have been a huge Nebulous cloud!
His genius was when he applied this particles interacting with Gravitational points throughout the whole solar system, and came up with proto planets, and the Sun growing as it captured all this matter strewn out in the area of the Solar system.
He went further, If thei was how the Solar system came into being, then the exact recipe was true for the Milky way.
And it would also be true for the Universe.

This was how he deducted that some pear shaped stars, visible by crude telescopes, are also Galaxies!
They were just very far away.

And Hubble confirmed Kants thesis!

Stephen Hawking wrote in his last book, Brief Answers to the Big Questions, that Gravity created everything, and God was not needed.
Guess what, he forgot that Kant said it 215 years before him, and Kant got it from the Bible!

This is where it gets interesting.
If our postulation that energy encompassed all space, and it developed, on a grand minute unimaginable scale, the smallest metamorphoses from energy to matter, then we have the answer to how "Nothing became Something".
And guess what?
This thinking kicked off by thinking about the Biblical description of the Origins of the Universe.

To conclude.
If Hawking claim God was not nessesary for creation, we just proved that God never needed Hawking to create everything.

And I love Prof. John Lennox who said about Hawking's statement:"Even if a genius speaks nonsense, it still remains nonsense."

 

[locust]

Realy?
I found the Trinity in the Bible in every old Testament chapter, New Testament Chapter, the Talmud, Zohar, (As per Zevi Nasi Hirsch Prinz (aka Rev. Christian William Henry Pauli.)

4 May 1877 “The Great Mystery, or How can Three be One?” Author’s Death #otdimjh

Zevi Nasi Hirsch Prinz (aka Rev. Christian William Henry Pauli.) was the author of this most popular and much reprinted work demonstrating the Trinity from the Jewish mystical tradition. Just who w…

jewinthepew.org

I also summarized the verses in the Bible describing God as YHWH, The Ruach Gedosh and the Word, or Wisdom.
Ant person that demands the word "Trinity" from the Bible are disingenuous. But that the Bible describe a God that exists, and has a Spirit within Him and a Word which describes His Mind, that is a fact.
And that the Word can leave the existance of the YHWH, and enter into creation, and the same for the Spirit...is all over the Bible.

you should know if you write it in to your Bible it does not count as being true

 

[OupaPiet]

you should know if you write it in to your Bible it does not count as being true

Very true.
However no one will disagree that the OT we have today is the same as the Dead Sea Scrolls, say of Isaiah, which dates from 260BC.
And the Old Testament gives a full description of the Triune God.

And, I assume you will not venture into claiming that I wrote into the Dead Sea scrolls that YHWH, spoke to His Spirit and asks who knows the name of His Son.

 

[locust]

Very true.
However no one will disagree that the OT we have today is the same as the Dead Sea Scrolls, say of Isaiah, which dates from 260BC.
And the Old Testament gives a full description of the Triune God.

And, I assume you will not venture into claiming that I wrote into the Dead Sea scrolls that YHWH, spoke to His Spirit and asks who knows the name of His Son.

i'l let you claim that then we can refute it later

 

[Thomas]

it took three hundred years ...

To arrive at an insightful concept of what is essential a mystery – a belief was there from the get-go.

 

[Thomas]

Imagine a Super Quanta. Can act like a Wave (Holy Ghost) or Particle (Being: Divine Father, Human Son).
That would be using a modern science theory, quantum theory. Not sure if I used it right or not. But it’s a stab at making sense of the Trinity.

As long as one remembers an analogy is just that – it's not actually a definition, nor an explanation.

Too much reliance on an analogy leads to problems and errors – the key is remembering God and the Trinity are unique.

 

[locust]

To arrive at an insightful concept of what is essential a mystery – a belief was there from the get-go.

its not a Nancy drew paperback

 

[Thomas]

its not a Nancy drew paperback

LOL, no, it's not!

 

[otherbrother]

As long as one remembers an analogy is just that – it's not actually a definition, nor an explanation.

Too much reliance on an analogy leads to problems and errors – the key is remembering God and the Trinity are unique.

Perhaps the most interesting use of that particular analogy is to note a certain degree of convergence of religious and scientific thought. To bolster cooperation. Whether the Bible has analogies for scientific knowledge our science has analogies for Biblical knowledge perhaps matters less than us seeing similarities and cooperating

 

[Thomas]

Perhaps the most interesting use of that particular analogy is to note a certain degree of convergence of religious and scientific thought.

As long as the scientific analogy does not try and define the religious, or determine how the Trinity 'works' – once again, we're talking about something absolute unique, and something that transcends the physical world, including the quantum domain, which is part of that world.

Other than that, it's fine, and we should look for correspondence where we can finds them. as a Trinitarian, I will always of course declare that such is so because Creation is Trinity-shaped.

Science and religion are two different fields, and really the physical sciences end at the boundary where the theological sciences begin.

To bolster cooperation. Whether the Bible has analogies for scientific knowledge ...

I would say not. The sacred scribe was little concerned with 'scientific knowledge', it is a matter of little consequence.

... our science has analogies for Biblical knowledge perhaps matters less than us seeing similarities and cooperating

Oh, sure.

There are resources: https://biologos.org/ or The Faraday Institute for Science and Religion but I haven't checked them out.

 

[otherbrother]

we're talking about something absolute unique, and something that transcends the physical world, including the quantum domain, which is part of that world.

If we notice an alternative to the standard materialistic view of reality , it is at least like opening a gate to whatever good can come from an Unknown reality. Whether by science or religion, we are then in a better position to open the gate and harvest unexpectedly good fruit

 

[Thomas]

If we notice an alternative to the standard materialistic view of reality , it is at least like opening a gate to whatever good can come from an Unknown reality. Whether by science or religion, we are then in a better position to open the gate and harvest unexpectedly good fruit

Not disputing that.

 

[otherbrother]

First Cause
/ˌfərs(t) ˈkôz/
nounPHILOSOPHY
a supposed ultimate cause of all events, which does not itself have a cause, identified with G!d.

sec·ond cause
/səˈkänd,ˈsekənd kôz/
nounLOGIC
a cause that is itself a cause

1st cause, 2nd cause, 3rd cause

G!d, Holy Spirit, The Christ
Father, Spirit, Jesus
Thought, Idea, Action
G!d, Adam, Eve
G!d, 1st Adam, 2nd Adam (Jesus)
Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium
Mind, Idea, expression
Thinker, Thought, Action

The material world is 3rd cause on, it is what we see and touch and smell. But if science tries to identify it it disappears, from solid, to crystals, to molecules, to atoms, electrons, quarks, wavicles, there is nothing there, and everything there

Everything man made is first a thought, our creatorselves creating our creations, as above so below.

The religious terms for the trinity are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The metaphysical terms are mind, idea, and expression.

Father is the source, origin, essence, root, creator of all. Son is that which proceeds from, is begotten of the Father, like Him in nature, and essentially all that the Father is. Holy Spirit is God's word in movement: the working, moving, breathing, brooding of Spirit, made known to men through revelation, inspiration, and guidance. The Holy Spirit is the Comforter who will bring all things to their remembrance.

The doctrine of the trinity is often a stumbling block, because we find it difficult to understand how three persons can be one. Three persons cannot be one, and theology will always be a mystery until theologians become metaphysicians.

God is the name of the all-encompassing Mind. Christ is the name of the all-loving Mind. Holy Spirit is the all-active manifestation. These three are one fundamental Mind in its three creative aspects

Wil, I too am a philosophical Idealist, believing Mind to be ultimate reality, and that our individual minds are chips off the old Universal Mind block.
I am still processing your thoughts here, but they already resonate well with my line of thought.

 

[otherbrother]

Wil, I too am a philosophical Idealist, believing Mind to be ultimate reality, and that our individual minds are chips off the old Universal Mind block.
I am still processing your thoughts here, but they already resonate well with my line of thought.

From a physical existence point of view, “God” is from another dimension that can somehow enter into this one. The entering action, the flow, could be considered the Holy Spirit. It would have the location and ways of a quantum realm. To the degree that any human becomes Christ-like, “anointed,” the other dimension is translocated, in place, in this physical dimension. This is Sonship (?). Greater quantum coherence would be evidenced , subjectively and objectively (once instruments are made that can measure it?). In terms of our space-bias, the God dimension would be deepest within our normal reality, then the Quantum Ghost, then the Quantum Coherent Son on the surface where we live a short while.
From a philosophical Idealism point of view that sees God as Mind, the trinity would seem to be: Mind, Thinking, and Thought. A discernible thought is the son of the mind father, but must go through a womb of indiscernible thinking to get there.

 

[Thomas]

It would have the location and ways of a quantum realm.

By very loose analogy, perhaps, I don't know enough about quantum physics.

The point being that God lies beyond the 'event horizon' or beyond the realm of physics, even quantum physics, which deals in particles and forces – the weave and weft of this dimension, or this kosmos – the Trinity are not of this kosmos (cf John 8:23).

Quantum mechanics is still in the realm of physical process.

From a philosophical Idealism point of view that sees God as Mind, the trinity would seem to be: Mind, Thinking, and Thought. A discernible thought is the son of the mind father, but must go through a womb of indiscernible thinking to get there.

A psychological analogy, but remember each Person of the Trinity has his own mind ... and God as such transcends all anthropological categories. Because mind is (arguably) the highest in humans (I would posit soul), it would be a category error to assume God is Mind – that's a projection of God as a human exemplar.

Augustine spoke of an analogy of the Trinity in anthropological terms – as Memory, Understanding and Will – but his understanding of memory is more than simply recollection, rather memory constitutes all that one is.

If you take all the quantum physics references out of the statements, they have much in common with what the Traditions have said.

If the analogy helps you understand, fine, but do not suppose that once you understand quantum phbysics you'll understand the Trinity, or that we'll develop devices so subtle that we can quantify and measure the Divine.