Follow Christ but not Christian

I think Ehrman says the two things all major historians agree on about Jesus are that he was baptized by John and was crucified by Pontius Pilate? I think he personally believes Jesus was an apocalyptic end-times preacher figure.
 
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'Amir Alzzalam said:
Posthumous writing means nothing only text that was actually authored by Yeshua would count as HIs philosophy.
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Not quite, you'd wipe some considerable names from Greek philosophy if that was the case – Pythagoras, Socrates, Heraclitus ... when we look at Antiquity, the surprise is not what we don't have, but what we do.
 
'Amir Alzzalam said:
Almost ALL secular historians (which are most men of science) agree with me that there exists not one iota of evidence that Yeshua ever existed and that not one word has ever been discovered that was written by this supposed messiah (just another Jewish false messiah).
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I'm sorry, but you may well have misled yourself here – almost ALL secular scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus DID exist, and the claim that he's a purely mythological figure is regarded as 'fringe' and of no real substance or value.
 
'Amir Alzzalam said:
I disagree, without any real evidence of His existence and not one written word or even a documented crucifixion by the Roman Empire (and the Romans kept excellent records), no historian, or anthropologist. etc. worth a damn would suggest Yeshua objectively existed.
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Not true.

We have a direct mention by Tacitus, and comments by Pliny and possibly (most likely) from Suetonius, as well as other non-Roman sources.

But are you suggesting that Rome's excellent records lists every criminal, madman or slave they executed across the empire? I think you exaggerate.

And, actually, I've heard anthropologists argue that the initial spread of Christianity means that Jesus, must have existed.
 
@'Amir Alzzalam – what this boils down to is the vast majority of scholars across a number of disciplines that touch on the topic believe that Jesus did exist.

We have to weigh this against your assertions – often based on erroneous or flawed claims – that he didn't.

Logically, reasonably and rationally, on balance, we'd have to come down on the side of the scholars.

Proving a negative is, of course, impossible, so you have a tough job there, but the best you can do is disprove the theories put forward by the scholars. Until you do that, it's just your opinion against theirs, and again, Occam's razor and all that ...
 
Thomas said:
I'm sorry, but you may well have misled yourself here – almost ALL secular scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus DID exist, and the claim that he's a purely mythological figure is regarded as 'fringe' and of no real substance or value.
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Rome in transition

Rome in transition The tragedy of the third century is that the chosen leader had to usurp imperial powers to assume the necessary authority instead of acting on behalf of a legitimate emperor who had lost all his credibility. The result was constant disunity, forcing the Romans to spend...
www.interfaith.org www.interfaith.org

I covered that ground extensively in this old thread
 
Thomas said:
Not true.

We have a direct mention by Tacitus, and comments by Pliny and possibly (most likely) from Suetonius, as well as other non-Roman sources.

But are you suggesting that Rome's excellent records lists every criminal, madman or slave they executed across the empire? I think you exaggerate.

And, actually, I've heard anthropologists argue that the initial spread of Christianity means that Jesus, must have existed.
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Let us not forget Josephus; while the one passage is challenged, a second passage is authenticated and genuine
 
'Amir Alzzalam said:
Yeshua (Jesus) failed as a messiah...
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That Christianity is still around almost 2 thousand years later suggests otherwise.

The Jews were watching for / anticipating a military leader, a new king. It didn't happen that way, instead it was a Priest King that came.

Success is often measured in different ways. Yeshua lost his earthly life, but gained a religion that spans half of the world.

Far more interesting to me are the subtle deceits being used to argue the matter. But that is stock in trade, no?

Regarding Bart Ehrman:
In 2012, Ehrman published Did Jesus Exist? The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth, defending the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth in contrast to the mythicist theory that Jesus is an entirely fictitious being.[39]
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en.wikipedia.org

Bart D. Ehrman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Odd, don't you think, to suggest someone (a specifically named scholar) doesn't believe Yeshua lived, yet this scholar wrote an entire book on the subject that contradicts the statement made?

Selective "evidence" leads right back to Morton's Demon...and it is by Morton's Demon that I know you will not hear evidence that conflicts with or challenges your preferred view. C'est la vie.
 
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Thomas said:
Not quite, you'd wipe some considerable names from Greek philosophy if that was the case – Pythagoras, Socrates, Heraclitus ... when we look at Antiquity, the surprise is not what we don't have, but what we do.
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Pythagoras is well documented, dunno where you got that from, we all know Socrates is Plato, and Heraclitus actually wrote things. Major Fail.
 
juantoo3 said:
That Christianity is still around almost 2 thousand years later suggests otherwise.

The Jews were watching for / anticipating a military leader, a new king. It didn't happen that way, instead it was a Priest King that came.

Success is often measured in different ways. Yeshua lost his earthly life, but gained a religion that spans half of the world.

Far more interesting to me are the subtle deceits being used to argue the matter. But that is stock in trade, no?

Regarding Bart Ehrman:

en.wikipedia.org

Bart D. Ehrman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Odd, don't you think, to suggest someone (a specifically named scholar) doesn't believe Yeshua lived, yet this scholar wrote an entire book on the subject that contradicts the statement made?

Selective "evidence" leads right back to Morton's Demon...and it is by Morton's Demon that I know you will not hear evidence that conflicts with or challenges your preferred view. C'est la vie.
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You must have missed this . . .

Follow Christ but not Christian

Posthumous writing means nothing only text that was actually authored by Yeshua would count as HIs philosophy. I don't think many historians would agree with you there.
www.interfaith.org www.interfaith.org
 
'Amir Alzzalam said:
Pythagoras is well documented, dunno where you got that from, we all know Socrates is Plato, and Heraclitus actually wrote things. Major Fail.
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Ahem ...

Pythagoras – your error. Nothing from Phyagoras survives. His philosophy is entirely reconstructed from other works.

Socrates – wrong again. Socrates was the tutor of Plato and Xenophon. We construct his works largely from Plato, but Xenophon reounts his teachings in Symposium, Oeconomicus and Hiero. He wrote a tribute to his old tutor: Memorabilia, and a chronicle of Socrates' trial in 399BC: Apology of Socrates to the Jury.

Heraclitus – sadly, wrong again. He wrote perhaps just one work, none of which has survives, although we have about a hundred individual citations in other works – but despite that, he has had a considerable influence on Philosophy even today.
 
It's super frustrating when someone can't admit they objectively made an error, and just pretend it never happened...
 
Thomas said:
Ahem ...

Pythagoras – your error. Nothing from Phyagoras survives. His philosophy is entirely reconstructed from other works.

Socrates – wrong again. Socrates was the tutor of Plato and Xenophon. We construct his works largely from Plato, but Xenophon reounts his teachings in Symposium, Oeconomicus and Hiero. He wrote a tribute to his old tutor: Memorabilia, and a chronicle of Socrates' trial in 399BC: Apology of Socrates to the Jury.

Heraclitus – sadly, wrong again. He wrote perhaps just one work, none of which has survives, although we have about a hundred individual citations in other works – but despite that, he has had a considerable influence on Philosophy even today.
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There are, in fact, no primary sources about Pythagoras which have survived. The only piece of literature that we have of him is from a small set of texts that was written between 150AD and 450AD. That is, 600 to 1000 years AFTER Pythagoras is said to have lived.
The main sources for the historical Socrates are the Sokratikoi logoi, or Socratic dialogues, which are reports of conversations apparently involving Socrates. Most information is found in the works of Plato and Xenophon.
Heraclitus is said to have produced a single work on papyrus, which has not survived; however, over 100 fragments of this work survive in quotations by other authors
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Perhaps I stand corrected and that is fine. However, none of this renders proof of the objective existence of The Son of God: Yeshua. If anything it demonstrates how Mankind is capable of inventing its heroes and villains.
 
'Amir Alzzalam said:
I wish you had read the Wiki article, which you clearly didn't.
Ehrman is now an atheist and thoroughly refutes the existence of Yeshua
That aside . . . where is your proof of His existence or that He wrote one letter of what is presented as His teachings?
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Perhaps you didn't understand the article? Bart Ehrman is an agnostic atheist at this time, last I heard. I have never heard he refutes the existence of Jesus. He does not. He believes as most scholars do that Jesus existed.
 
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