Follow Christ but not Christian

'Amir Alzzalam said:
You're confusing proof with evidence
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very well then, describe the difference.
again unsure how there can be evidence against someone's existence.
absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
further, there is not an absence of evidence

let me tell you about my friend margie.
maybe she's real, maybe she's imaginary
how will you be sure?
how will you demonstrate, or even find, evidence against her existence?
 
'Amir Alzzalam said:
Mathematics is in no way factual there are an infinite number of mathematical truths.
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The Law of Gravity is described in a Newton equation showing that the force between two masses varies inversely in proportion to the square of the distance between them. It works for all practical usage.

The most commonly accepted theory of gravity is Einstein's special relativity of spacetime curvature caused by the mass of objects.

It's not the only theory of gravity, there are other views, but it is the most commonly accepted consensus model that makes usable predictions.


The Theory of Gravity is always up to be falsified or improved by new evidence. The maths of the Law of Gravity doesn't change. It's a proven fact. That's how science works
 
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RJM said:
The law of gravity is described in a math equation showing the force between two masses varies inversely square proportion to the distance between them. It works for all practical usage.

The most commonly accepted theory of gravity is Einstein's special relativity of spacetime curvature caused by the mass of objects.

It's not the only theory of gravity, there are other views, but it is the most commonly accepted consensus model that makes usable predictions.


The theory of gravity is always up to be falsified or improved by new evidence. The maths of the law of gravity doesn't change. It's a proven fact. That's how science works
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Science works on theory, theories are constantly changed as further information is found. Science is not a factual thing, it is always being adjusted.
 
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TheLightWithin said:
very well then, describe the difference.
again unsure how there can be evidence against someone's existence.
absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
further, there is not an absence of evidence

let me tell you about my friend margie.
maybe she's real, maybe she's imaginary
how will you be sure?
how will you demonstrate, or even find, evidence against her existence?
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If I were to meet Margie that would be hard proof she objectively exists
If I were to read documented texts by Margie that is also proof, although not as definite as meeting her
If I were read texts written by someone else citing Margie's philosophies that would be evidence, although not very definite
If all we heard by others was interpretations of Margie's philosophies that would be even less evidence of her objective existence.

You can't prove a negative, so I can't prove Yeshua didn't exist, however I can submit evidences that point in the direction of His existence being myth and fable.
 
'Amir Alzzalam said:
Science works on theory, theories are constantly changed as further information is found. Science is not a factual thing, it is always being adjusted.
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Sure. But theories must make predictions in order to be accepted as consensus working models -- such as for creating the James Webb space telescope, or landing a Mars rover, or designing the internet devices we are using to communicate with?

Relativity and the Standard Model of physics are still both just theories?
 
There's no such thing as final 'proof' in science, just accumulated weight of evidence that enables practical application.

It's not like the mathematical proof of Pythagoras theorem -- it's a fixed mathematical fact
 
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'Amir Alzzalam said:
If I were to meet Margie that would be hard proof she objectively exists
If I were to read documented texts by Margie that is also proof, although not as definite as meeting her
If I were read texts written by someone else citing Margie's philosophies that would be evidence, although not very definite
If all we heard by others was interpretations of Margie's philosophies that would be even less evidence of her objective existence.
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Are you not confusing proof with evidence? Or is that intentional?

Either way, I still have no objective proof or evidence that you exist. Subjective perhaps, but nothing objective.
 
juantoo3 said:
Are you not confusing proof with evidence? Or is that intentional?

Either way, I still have no objective proof or evidence that you exist. Subjective perhaps, but nothing objective.
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You are obviously confused with these terms and the explanations . . . have a pleasant day.
 
juantoo3 said:
I think it is pretty clear you are guilty of what you accuse others of in this instance.

But then I expect no less of you.
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If you can't deliver objective evidence for the existence of Yeshua then stop talking to me. Stick with the topic and stop misdirecting, it's obvious you have no real reply.
 
juantoo3 said:
Are you not confusing proof with evidence? Or is that intentional?

Either way, I still have no objective proof or evidence that you exist. Subjective perhaps, but nothing objective.
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Ironically too as this was their response to me asking them to talk about the difference between proof and evidence, which was a response to them saying I had confused evidence with proof.
 
'Amir Alzzalam said:
If you can't deliver objective evidence for the existence of Yeshua then stop talking to me. Stick with the topic and stop misdirecting, it's obvious you have no real reply.
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If you can't provide objective evidence you exist, the conversation is pointless anyway.

Ciao!
 
juantoo3 said:
If you can't provide objective evidence you exist, the conversation is pointless anyway.

Ciao!
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That's just stupid . . . I'm talking to you aren't I? I have a birth certificate, hundreds of pictures of me, I've written books, attended schools, been arrested, all documented. The Romans, who kept immaculate records, don't even mention a Yeshua, or any crucifixion of said name.

Yeah . . . Ciao Mio Amico!
 
'Amir Alzzalam said:
That's just stupid . . . I'm talking to you aren't I? I have a birth certificate, hundreds of pictures of me, I've written books, attended schools, been arrested, all documented. The Romans, who kept immaculate records, don't even mention a Yeshua, or any crucifixion of said name.

Yeah . . . Ciao Mio Amico!
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Objection Your Honor...hearsay.

Sustained.
 
"Annals," book XV, Chapter 44 by Roman Senator Cornelius Tacitus

"Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the fane and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed."
​

Complete Works of Tacitus. Tacitus. Alfred John Church. William Jackson Brodribb. Sara Bryant. edited for Perseus. New York. : Random House, Inc. Random House, Inc. reprinted 1942.

Emphasis mine for the benefit of those who say there is no record among the Romans noting the execution of Christ

<doff of the hat to RJM for a footnote in another thread that brought this back to my attention>
 
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'Amir Alzzalam said:
Posthumous writing means nothing only text that was actually authored by Yeshua would count as HIs philosophy.
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Sun Tzu, Hannibal, William Wallace, Spartacus, Leonidas the 1st, Alexander the Great, Attila the Hun, Boudica, Homer, and Sargon of Akkad are all historical figures with barely any evidence of their existence, especially firsthand. So based on your logic, they didn't probably exist. I've even spoken to historians who don't believe William Shakespeare existed. Don't even get me started on the Egyptian pharaohs. But these people's philosophies exist. They don't mean nothing. Most historians would agree that these people probably existed. But with the lack of firsthand writings, these people (by your logic) never existed.
 
'Amir Alzzalam said:
I disagree, without any real evidence of His existence and not one written word or even a documented crucifixion by the Roman Empire (and the Romans kept excellent records), no historian, or anthropologist. etc. worth a damn would suggest Yeshua objectively existed.
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I have been asking about these crucifixion and census records that many non-believers go on about. Where are they? As you say, the Romans kept excellent records. So where are all of these records of commoners being crucified and being part of the census? They must exist, as you all seem to claim. So where are they? Because there isn't some long list of crucifixions and citizens of Judah from that time period. But you will give evidence of this, right? I'm definitely assured that the Romans, in a recently conquered part of Rome, would definitely keep record of a man executed without crime and from an illegal trial.... right? The Romans would definitely keep that record front and center... right?

So show me the complete records of the executions and census from that time period in the area of Judea and I promise to show you Jesus's crucifixion. I've been waiting 20 years for this list. Not one non-believer has been able to provide it.
 
RJM said:
Paul was writing within about 25 yrs after the crucifixion, and says he met with Peter and James, the brother of Jesus. How likely is it that a non-existent Jesus has already gained such a following within that time?
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Jesus had very few followers. If He had a lot of followers they would have protested His crucifixion and He would have been let go. But as you appear to be alluding to, dying and then showing up resurrected AND ascending to heaven? That will convert a lot of people really fast!!!
 
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