Religious Beliefs and Morality

[muhammad_isa]

The subject is dealt with extensively in the New Testament, including Paul and John, of course -- and it pivots upon the spiritual redemption of incarnation, death on the cross, and resurrection of the Christ.

..but that is not about morality .. that is about belief.
As far as I'm aware, morality has its roots in "the law".

It has already been said that the ten commandments are considered law by most Christians,
and that is how I understand it.
However, @Faithfulservant said "It is legalism to bind us in the law which Jesus fulfilled on the cross. Imo"..
..and that is something I can't agree with.

 

[Faithfulservant]

..but that is not about morality .. that is about belief.
As far as I'm aware, morality has its roots in "the law".

It has already been said that the ten commandments are considered law by most Christians,
and that is how I understand it.
However, @Faithfulservant said "It is legalism to bind us in the law which Jesus fulfilled on the cross. Imo"..
..and that is something I can't agree with.

There are actually 613 Mitzvot or laws. So I stand by what I said. We are not bound to the law but the 10 Commandments are applicable to all and especially these two.

Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

 

[muhammad_isa]

There are actually 613 Mitzvot or laws. So I stand by what I said. We are not bound to the law but the 10 Commandments are applicable to all and especially these two..

Right .. so it is a case of deciding which is applicable, and which is not.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Stop trying to trap me with circular arguments. We are saved by Grace through Faith and not of works so we cant boast at how good we are. It is impossible to follow the law as our very hearts are wicked and our good deeds are as filthy rags. You hate someone and you have committed murder in your heart . You lust after someone you have committed adultery in your heart.. you spend time and money on a favorite hobby and you have created an idol in your heart.. you steal a pen from the drs office you are a thief.. you do a deed in God's name that is not of God and you take His name in vain... All are wicked and fall short of the glory of God. There is no means of reconciling with God apart from Jesus Christ.

It is impossible to please God apart from Jesus Christ.

Respecting the location of this thread... This is my very humble opinion.

 

[restored&adopted]

Ephesians 2:8–9 (ESV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Galatians 2:16 (ESV)
16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified

Titus 3:5 (ESV)
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,.

All that being said... Works are a product of faith and a desire to do the will of the Father. Imo

Titus 2:14 (ESV)
14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

James 2:17 (ESV)
17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead

James 2:26 (ESV)
26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead..

Matthew 3:8 (ESV)
8 Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.

I also believe that God dealt with Israel in the Old Covenant and we are being dealt with in the New Covenant through Jesus Christ. It is legalism to bind us in the law which Jesus fulfilled on the cross. Imo

This is where I want to ask that you please pray for discernment before reading further brother.

Forget about what you have been taught by man and go to the Father and ask Him for the Truth. (and prepare to know what it means for the world to hate you)
Regarding His Covenant, He makes the rules:
Jer 31:33 “For this is the covenant I shall make with the house of Yisra’ěl after those days, declares יהוה: I shall put My law in their inward parts, and write it on their hearts. And I shall be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.
Jer 31:34 “And no longer shall they teach, each one his neighbour, and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know יהוה,’ for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares יהוה. “For I shall forgive their crookedness, and remember their sin no more.”

The (refreshed) new Covenant did not change the laws, it changed us so that through His Ruach we can obey His law as we need to be clothed in white for the wedding.
That is why The Word told His messengers (apostles) to proclaim the Good Message and teach people that they should obey His commandments. Not to start "churches". He is the Pastor and Bishop of our Souls.

Do not put your trust in an arm of flesh by choosing Paul's teaching over the One who shed His blood for you as it will cost you dearly.
The binding of iron and copper is failing and we are entering the early light where His people will worship in Truth and in Ruach (Spirit)
We have inherited a mine in which there are no riches.

 

[restored&adopted]

"He has enabled us to be ministers of a new covenant no longer depending on the written text, but on the Spirit. The written text kills, but the Spirit gives life"
(2 Corinthians 3:6)

Lies. (Scripture does not kill but teaches us to avoid the first and the second death) David had the indwelling of the Ruach and delighted in Scripture. (And so should all His children)
Without Scripture anyone "wielding" spirits can claim to speak the truth.

 

[restored&adopted]

Religion and morality are clearly not linked securely.

The treatment of natives by religious colonists thruout time pretty much proves that. The graves around the children's homes proves that. The number of pedophiles who were in positions of power and influence in religious institutions proves that.

In theory the books say they should be...in reality humans have issues...no matter what religion they are.

Can you be an evil religious leader? Proven.

Can you be an atheist humanitarian? Proven.

Cons and pedophiles and immoral folks will gladly use the religious institutions proclivity for forgiveness to abuse authority and people...and the problem is...the institutions rules...forgive and shuffle as the congregation suffers

That is true and a good example of the difference between Faith and Religion

 

[restored&adopted]

Right .. so it is a case of deciding which is applicable, and which is not.

The law is what was written on the stone tablets and people seems to forget that in the end comes judgement. Judgement is not possible without a law and even as Yahusha witnessed that the scribes added their own laws He said to obey them and not be like them that put the laws on the people but not obey them themselves. This is why He has explained the law as the Greater (love Elohim) and Lesser (but evenly important to love thy fellow man) Since the law is written on our hearts we would know if anything falls into these 2. The problem comes in when it is taught that if one obeys the lesser it is as good as obeying the greater.

 

[restored&adopted]

Stop trying to trap me with circular arguments. We are saved by Grace through Faith and not of works so we cant boast at how good we are. It is impossible to follow the law as our very hearts are wicked and our good deeds are as filthy rags. You hate someone and you have committed murder in your heart . You lust after someone you have committed adultery in your heart.. you spend time and money on a favorite hobby and you have created an idol in your heart.. you steal a pen from the drs office you are a thief.. you do a deed in God's name that is not of God and you take His name in vain... All are wicked and fall short of the glory of God. There is no means of reconciling with God apart from Jesus Christ.

It is impossible to please God apart from Jesus Christ.

Respecting the location of this thread... This is my very humble opinion.

Forgive me for hopping around all over this thread.
Salvation is a process that only ends when we get our new bodies.
So yes we have and are being saved by the Blood through Grace and we receive that salvation through Faith (repentance, trust, obedience, perserverance) It is not impossible to follow the law if we abide in Him. Even more so if we walk behind and not in front.
That is the reason why He sent us His Set-Apart Ruach (Spirit) so that we can become set-apart by overcoming our shortcoming. This is the fullfillment of the Good Message as we will be turned to ashes if we are not Set-Apart on the great and terrible day.

 

[Faithfulservant]

This is where I want to ask that you please pray for discernment before reading further brother.

Forget about what you have been taught by man and go to the Father and ask Him for the Truth. (and prepare to know what it means for the world to hate you)
Regarding His Covenant, He makes the rules:
Jer 31:33 “For this is the covenant I shall make with the house of Yisra’ěl after those days, declares יהוה: I shall put My law in their inward parts, and write it on their hearts. And I shall be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.
Jer 31:34 “And no longer shall they teach, each one his neighbour, and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know יהוה,’ for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares יהוה. “For I shall forgive their crookedness, and remember their sin no more.”

The (refreshed) new Covenant did not change the laws, it changed us so that through His Ruach we can obey His law as we need to be clothed in white for the wedding.
That is why The Word told His messengers (apostles) to proclaim the Good Message and teach people that they should obey His commandments. Not to start "churches". He is the Pastor and Bishop of our Souls.

Do not put your trust in an arm of flesh by choosing Paul's teaching over the One who shed His blood for you as it will cost you dearly.
The binding of iron and copper is failing and we are entering the early light where His people will worship in Truth and in Ruach (Spirit)
We have inherited a mine in which there are no riches.

Paul is the chosen apostle to the gentiles my friend. I am not Jewish. By disregarding everything from Acts to Revelation you are disregarding the entire message given to the bride of Christ and I would label that false teaching. Nothing Paul taught superceded what the Lord said.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Forgive me for hopping around all over this thread.
Salvation is a process that only ends when we get our new bodies.
So yes we have and are being saved by the Blood through Grace and we receive that salvation through Faith (repentance, trust, obedience, perserverance) It is not impossible to follow the law if we abide in Him. Even more so if we walk behind and not in front.
That is the reason why He sent us His Set-Apart Ruach (Spirit) so that we can become set-apart by overcoming our shortcoming. This is the fullfillment of the Good Message as we will be turned to ashes if we are not Set-Apart on the great and terrible day.

The thief on the cross only believed and Jesus told him that in that day he would be with Him in paradise. He did no works.. he did not follow the law of Moses he merely believed that Jesus was who He said He was. You believe in a works based Salvation denying the entirety of what His sacrifice on the cross did. He died so we would not die. It's nothing we do or can ever do. His Grace is sufficient. IMO

Might I suggest introducing yourself in the introduction thread?

 

[muhammad_isa]

The thief on the cross only believed and Jesus told him that in that day he would be with Him in paradise. He did no works.. he did not follow the law of Moses he merely believed that Jesus was who He said He was.

..he didn't get the chance to do any works..
I don't see anybody on this thread suggesting that our faith is not the most important thing.
However, if we do not know what faith represents, then what is it?

You believe in a works based Salvation denying the entirety of what His sacrifice on the cross did.

I don't believe in a "work's based salvation" .. but I can see that if we persist in committing adultery,
for example, we are likely to lose our faith .. hence lose any salvation.

In other words, our works are very important. Our faith depends on our attitude and behaviour.

 

[Faithfulservant]

..he didn't get the chance to do any works..
I don't see anybody on this thread suggesting that our faith is not the most important thing.
However, if we do not know what faith represents, then what is it?


I don't believe in a "work's based salvation" .. but I can see that if we persist in committing adultery,
for example, we are likely to lose our faith .. hence lose any salvation.

In other words, our works are very important. Our faith depends on our attitude and behaviour.

I cannot even tell you how many times I've backslid in my life. Never once would I ever believe I lost my salvation as He promised to never leave or forsake me.. that I would never fall a fatal fall.. that He would leave the 99 to find me. That I am His. How scary and insecure it would feel if God loved me conditionally as long as I lived a sinless perfect life. Scripture teaches that if you are guilty of one sin you are guilty of them all. I am a sinner through and through. I try to be Christ like but I fail Him all the time.

In the dictionary, Grace is defined as courteous goodwill. Meaning, it’s not asked for nor deserved, but is freely given. Mercy, on the other hand, is the compassion and kindness shown to someone whom it is in one’s power to punish or harm. It is an act meant to relieve someone of their suffering

 

[RabbiO]

@restored&adopted -

Just curious how and why you chose as your translation of choice The Scriptures 2009.

 

[muhammad_isa]

How scary and insecure it would feel if God loved me conditionally as long as I lived a sinless perfect life.

Nobody lives a perfect and sinless life .. apart from 'sons of God' .. and they are few.

Scripture teaches that if you are guilty of one sin you are guilty of them all.

That makes no sense.
A person who smokes is not as guilty as a serial killer.

 

[Clobbernocky]

I have been thinking about this concept a bit and ran across this article today--one of those news headlines on my home page.

MSN

www.msn.com

What do others think? Does religious belief and/or belief in God lead to more moral behavior? Is it not linked at all?
Where do people without religion learn right from wrong, in your observations?

If you ask two different people what morality is you will probably get little agreement. The more people you ask you'll have even less agreement.

Believing in God, a person will often act out of fear of offense moreso than a desire to do the fair and right thing.

Morality is a desire to do right and recognizing that there is right and wrong. Morality is far more in the heart, than in the mind.

Without religion people look for rational reasons why something is right or wrong.

From individual to individual I don't believe many people have the same conscience whether religious or not.

I think many people religious or not just want to do what they want to do and rationalize their morality around that. The others whether religious or not actually have genuine conscience.

A lot of people non religious debate between moral objectivity, moral relativism, and moral nihilism. They'll get their morality from family, culture, society, and from subjective preferences and tastes.

There's no one size fits all classification of religious and non religious people with regards to morality.

 

[Faithfulservant]

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.

Transgressing the law is transgressing the law. You would be a transgressor of the law. Easier to just say a sin is a sin.

 

[Thomas]

Sorry if this comes through as interrogative but what is the "book of nature"?

It's an ancient and lang-standing tradition that contemplation of nature – the world – can lead to wisdom and understanding.

Around the 6BC, philosophers no longer viewed natural phenomena as the result of free-acting, omnipotent gods. Rather, natural forces resided within nature, which was an integral part of a created world, and appeared under certain conditions that had little to do with the manipulative tendencies of personal deities.

In the Christian Tradition there are two books – the Book of Nature and the Bible.

There is talk of nature as 'general revelation' and the Bible as 'special revelation' concerned with God's reconciling the world to Himself.

The Psalmist says: “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands ... “their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world” (Psalm 19:1, 4).

St Paul said: “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse” (Romans 1:20).

 

[Leveller]

It's an ancient and lang-standing tradition that contemplation of nature – the world – can lead to wisdom and understanding.

This I believe was also the third of Inayat Khan's "Ten Sufi Thoughts"
"There is One Holy Book, the sacred manuscript of nature, the only scripture which can enlighten the reader." (Wikipedia)

 

[restored&adopted]

Paul is the chosen apostle to the gentiles my friend. I am not Jewish. By disregarding everything from Acts to Revelation you are disregarding the entire message given to the bride of Christ and I would label that false teaching. Nothing Paul taught superceded what the Lord said.

I know it is hard to hear and don't listen to what I'm about to say using your earthly ears. You need to be born again to be saved not a born-again Christian. The false teaching crept in long ago as our Messiah said the Mystery of iniquity was already at work. Faith was annexed and turned into religion, just as it is playing out again with the bear lying on it's side with the 3 ribs between its tooth. Paul was the chosen apostle according to himself. Where are the witnesses? The Word chose 12 as the new Yerushalem only has 12 gates and 12 foundations. If you read the Scriptures you will notice that Yahusha came for the "lost sheep" of YisarEl (Note that Yisar'El is not Yahudah as the fake "jews" would like you to believe, Yisar'El is a people of which Yahusha is the first-born).
If you disobey Paul's commandment and read the "old testament" (btw The Word does not get old) you will notice that anyone that broke Father's commandments were cut off from the covenant and as His people and became gentiles. There were no 13th apostle needed as the 12 were told to go to the lost sheep proclaiming the Good Message ON THE WAY ....AND teach people to keep His commandments (Which includes the Sabbath)
The 13th apostle is a roman invention and not only does the prophesies confirm it but so will the Ruach (Spirit) once you receive ears to hear.
If you read the Book of Jubilees (which you were "taught" you are not supposed to read) you will learn why Father allowed it.
Paul did not write Revelation and also not all the letters of the "new" testament (The Good Message has been proclaimed since the Creation) and The Word tells us that the law and prophets were until Yochanan (both as one prophesied the Lamb and the other the Lion) which means no "new" laws(commandments) or prophecies can be added as He completed it all.
Test all especially every word of Paul to that of The Word. And know that I disregard nothing as the Word is not limited to "doctrines" and understanding of man. A wolf in sheeps clothing means covered in mostly truth but mixed with lies.