Religious Beliefs and Morality

[moralorel]

Interesting... but... I wonder if you guys ended up being awfully somber needlessly?

I'm not so sure about sobering conclusion, as in I think the premise is faulty. People often talk about "the world" as if it the whole world were just one big agreeing place that just didn't like God very much. But there world is not a simple, single, constantly agreeing place. There are so many cultures and histories and ways of looking at things... I'm not sure I understand or believe what is said above "Worldly law 1 or 2 or 3"
For example "Wordly" law 1 "Follow your heart"
Sure, you can get that advice somewhere in the world, but by no means everywhere.
By they way, what exactly does it mean to follow your heart? Heart is proverbial in this usage and the meaning is slippery.
And it's by no means only God-fearing people that will tell you NOT to follow your heart. People with no religion, but with only hard knocks life experience, may speak bitterly on this point.
"Wordly" law 2 "Stand by your opinion no matter what"
Who says that? There may be some people who say that somewhere. Elsewhere, still in the world, you get advice to "go along to get along" Usually you'll get more nuanced advice all together, if you're talking to sensible people.
Wordly law 3 "Be quick to judge" I think that is a habit we have been seeing more and more of. I'm not sure it's a law nor ever has been.
Worldly law 4 "Love Yourself" That's not bad advice, but you definitely won't hear that everywhere in the world. Also, within the bible it does say "love your neighbor as yourself" Not "more than thyself or instead of thyself" implying some love and care for self.
Wordly Law 5 "Act on your emotions" (by which I think is meant impulses) Again, a common habit, but hardly a law or even advice that you would get from anyone sensible
Wordly law 6 "Put your trust in politicians and famous people" It's a habit to some, but it's reviled by others as often as not.

So, here's a different take on it: Humans do have some bad habits that you see again and again. (that's taking from the list above, which is about bad habits rather than vicious crimes) The bible contains many counter-suggestions counter-directives and antidotes to these slipshod impulses.
I mean, the whole idea is that humanity is fallen, right? And in need of God... That is, at least, one prominent religious interpretation of the relationship of broken humanity to God.
That take doesn't inexhorably lead to the sense that "the world (whatever they mean by that--world being a big place with billions of people and a billion opinions and trends) hates God"

Obiously the world isn't united in my examples of "worldly laws". But these are unwritten laws that have always existed and are becoming quite common. Obviously these aren't true laws, but many people defend these unwritten rules as if they truly were concrete laws.

There were a lot more subjects that came up that contributed to our somber conclusion. There are so many more "worldly laws" that I could cover. It was somber for a variety of reasons. A lot of it personal.

 

[restored&adopted]

Jesus called on the name of God in Aramaic on the cross.. My God My God why has thou forsaken me. Jesus was Jewish yet He did not call on God in Hebrew but in the language of the time. your theory on using the true name of God being important in setting one apart. Jesus the King of Kings used the name of God in Aramaic while dying on the cross. Maybe you need to reread your posts.

Paul taught on sanctification which was HIS word for the process of becoming more Christ like or set apart.

I disagree with your understanding of religion It's insulting to be called religious where I am from. I'm a sinner and unworthy apart from Christ. When people ask me what religion I am I cringe inwardly. There is nothing I can possibly do on my own that could resemble God's holiness. I look at all the figures in the bible and the hot mess they were and how God transformed them and redeemed them. That is what I see in my own life.

I know it is hard to grasp and I'm sorry if it comes across as insulting. Religion was set in place to divide and conquer. The good news is that this leaves one focusing on Faith and that is where our focus should be so you don't have to cringe for the rest of your life
That may have been His plan with this site being created as we all have our parts to play.
Once you receive your ears you will also see that it was prophesied that it is going to happen. Babylon will fall.

Elohim has only One Name as He is One. YHWH as was understood by the world due to the rulers of the time interpreting it in Latin and the Name already out of people's mouths at that time for what began as reverence but ended up being deception.
The Waw is actually an "O" so His Name is not Jahwe or Jehovah but Yahoah/Yahuah (U used as the O is pronounced OO but changing to O to U hides the meaning of ElOah or ElOhiy)
This is the Name of the Father and the Son as He is One
So Yahusha did not use His Father's "Aramaic" Name but addressed Him from Son to Father.

"YaH" the Son "OH" the Father. That is why we say Hallelu-Yah to the Name that was given authority over Creation and why David (But not really a V") prophesied in Psalms that the last generation will Praise Yah.
It was also the Son (El Yah) who spoke to Hagar in the desert in Gen 16:13 הדבר אליה and I guess they interpreted ElYah as Allah.

You will notice that the Name Yahusha (Ishua) is the name "under" the heavens by which we can come to the Father and in the Book of ZecherYah (Zachary) you will see it is the name in which we should be standing on Judgement day. That is what it mean to be asking in His name, we need to be renewed in His image and that is why the Torah (instructions) is in Scripture to achieve that renewal and The Set-Apart Ruach was sent to help us achieve that.

Pro 30:4 Who has ascended up into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, if you can tell?

The amazing thing is that just by His Name He brings the lies into the open so that all regardless of religion can see that He is The Only True Elohim.

 

[restored&adopted]

I will say that if people have the "fruits of the spirit" (mentioned in Galatians 5:22-23) that they are moral people. That may not surprise most of you, but the morality of the Bible is at odds with the world's morality.

About a year ago I had a discussion with some atheist and agnostic friends. Eventually our conversation steered towards fundamental Christians. Everyone was agreeing that God isn't really that offensive, just his "homophobic and transphobic" laws. But then I pointed out something to them. Pretty much everything about God, His laws, His advice, and His character are offensive to the world. Don't believe me? After our discussion they actually agreed and that agreement ended our evening. Here are some examples of what I brought up.

1. Worldly law - Follow your heart
God's law - "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?"

Constantly I hear people say that we should follow our heart or listen to our heart. God warns us that the heart is full of evil thoughts (Mark 7:21-23)
2. Worldly law - Stand by your opinion no matter what.
God's law - Always be subject to reproof and be willing to shed your pride aside.
"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid" (Proverbs 12:1)
"He who is often reproved, yet stiffens his neck, will suddenly be broken beyond healing." (Proverbs 29:1)
3. Worldly law - Be quick to judge someone, especially if politics are involved. Judge before knowing the facts.
God's law - "Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.” (John 7:24)
"If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame." (Proverbs 18:13)
4. Worldly law - A. Love yourself B. Love who you are because you are great just the way you are.
God's law - "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another." (John 13:34) "Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves." (Philippians 2:3) "For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself." (Galatians 6:3)

5. Worldly law - Act on your emotions! If you are angry, react swiftly! (Very common with political discussions).
God's law - "Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger" (James 1:9)
"A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back." (Proverbs 29:11)
6. Worldly law - Trust and put your faith in politicians and famous people.
God's law - "It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in man." (Psalm 118:8) "Thus says the Lord: “Cursed is the man who trusts in man and makes flesh his strength, whose heart turns away from the Lord." (Jeremiah 17:5)

There are plenty more examples, but I've made my point. God and His writings are offensive to the world. Surprisingly at the end of our discussion everyone agreed. It became a somber discussion, but it is true. The world hates God.

Very true and that is not what is preached these days. We do not just have to show for the Wedding but also have to be dressed for the occasion.

 

[restored&adopted]

Sources for the statement about Paul living out his life in Spain.

Acts 29

 

[Thomas]

Mostly because Paul said they do not need to read the "Old Testament"

Where does Paul say that?

Paul always says he is a Jew, but if one go deeper into his history there are red flags popping up everywhere.

And yet contemporary Jewish scholarship states quite clearly that Paul is Jewish. Could it not be that your red-flags are misinterpretations or understandings?

 

[Thomas]

But Yahusha said to the apostles that they won't see Him anymore as He is going to His Father.

But they dis see Him, and in fact Paul never said he saw Him, but heard a voice ... so you're mistaken there, I'm afraid.

In Scripture we learn that there are always at least 2 witnesses ...

Sorry, wrong again. When the risen Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene, it was just her.

Paul on the other hand went to Arabia for 3 years to receive his teaching....

Yes, the place of Moses and Elijah (like Elijah, Saul was a zealous Jew). I am in favour of N.T. Wright's thesis that Paul undergoes a profound spiritual shock on the road to Damascus, and he retreats to the desert to commune with his Jewish heritage to seek answers ...

 

[Thomas]

Acts 29

That's a fraud ...

 

[Thomas]

From what I have seen, there is enough proof that Martin Luther was a Rosicrucian ...

I would suggest you look more to scholarly research than sensationalist materials widely available but based on little more than assumption and insinuation.

It's generally agreed it was a Lutheran who penned the Rosicrucian manifesto – but that was a man named Johannes Valentinus Andreae (1586-1654), born 100 years after Martin Luther. Andreae claimed they were satirical, and works ridiculed occultism and alchemy.

There is no evidence of Rosicrucianim prior to the manifestos' publication, although we must allow for the possibility of a secret society. However, from what we can tell, Rosicrucianism was founded long after Luther's death.

(The supposed shared symbolism of Luther and the Rosicrucians rather ignores their own explanations, which differ, however it's more liklely that the Rosicrucians copied Luther, then offered their own interpretation. The Tudor Rose is another similar symbol. A bit like heraldic eagles, you'd need one for credibility.

And not one copy of any Bible I have read is translated 100% correctly.

Well every translation is a compromise, there's no other way round it. hence the skill of translators.
BTW, the KJV is hardly the best translation by a long shot ...

I do not choose to disbelieve in Paul, I choose to believe in The Word.

So you think Paul was wrong to challenge Peter over treating Gentiles as second-class Christians?

 

[Thomas]

The Vatican controls access to manuscripts.

And they are available ..

Book of Mattitiyahu was written in Hebrew as the oldest version discovered.[/quote]
Where is it?

Elohim commanded hat one should not mention the name of false gods on our lips, and the Greek language is built on their gods.

Same applies to Hebrew. El is not uniquely Hebrew – pagan gods were called El.

 

[Thomas]

if you study the Hebrew texts you will notice that there are "missing" elements in the Greek e.g Qadosh/Qodesh/Qadash that are all translated as "holy" (which root comes from the druidic "holly trees")

Ah, no ... the three terms are noun, adjective and verb of the same root, as are the uses of holy, so that's rather a misleading claim.

The root of 'holly' is not the same as 'holy' ... that's confabulation.

If one spend enough time in the Hebrew Scriptures you will notice the "emptiness" that goes with the Greek.

On the other hand, there might be more to the Greek than meets your eye.

 

[restored&adopted]

Where does Paul say that?


And yet contemporary Jewish scholarship states quite clearly that Paul is Jewish. Could it not be that your red-flags are misinterpretations or understandings?

In 2 Co 3:14 he says it was done away with and he is not talking about the Covenant but the "reading of the "diatheke"'

If you read all Scripture starting at the Book of Genesis you will know that what you read does not depend on Him lifting the veil.

"Scholarships" are why people cannot understand Scripture and you need to understand why the Word has said what He said.

 

[Thomas]

As there is One Word.(but many Bibles). That is why all Truth comes from The Ruach even when studying Scripture.

I would say there is the Word of God which transcends language, and that if one's heart is right, then the language of Scripture is immaterial, as the Spirit will lead one to understanding and illuminate the soul.

Nefesh is translated as psyche (Gk) anima [Lt) – Body
Ruach – nous/pneuma – spiritus – Mind
Neshamah – pneuma/pnoe – spiritus/spiraculum/habitus – Spirit

 

[restored&adopted]

I would suggest you look more to scholarly research than sensationalist materials widely available but based on little more than assumption and insinuation.

It's generally agreed it was a Lutheran who penned the Rosicrucian manifesto – but that was a man named Johannes Valentinus Andreae (1586-1654), born 100 years after Martin Luther. Andreae claimed they were satirical, and works ridiculed occultism and alchemy.

There is no evidence of Rosicrucianim prior to the manifestos' publication, although we must allow for the possibility of a secret society. However, from what we can tell, Rosicrucianism was founded long after Luther's death.

(The supposed shared symbolism of Luther and the Rosicrucians rather ignores their own explanations, which differ, however it's more liklely that the Rosicrucians copied Luther, then offered their own interpretation. The Tudor Rose is another similar symbol. A bit like heraldic eagles, you'd need one for credibility.


Well every translation is a compromise, there's no other way round it. hence the skill of translators.
BTW, the KJV is hardly the best translation by a long shot ...


So you think Paul was wrong to challenge Peter over treating Gentiles as second-class Christians?

I'd say "evidence" of Rosicrucianism was founded long after Luther's death but not that it matters as the Creator is clear about the practices that is an abomination to Him.
Martin Luther also did not want the Book of Revelation to be included in the Bible when they planned it. (The reason I dont know)

I agree with your comment on KJV.

He was not wrong to bring it to his attention but if he took out the beam from his own eye he would have known it was a sin to share someone else faults or errors with the world. Maybe it was round that time he wanted people to start confessing their sins to him as their father?.
Peter was shown his error on that by the Set-Apart Ruach through the visions (which religion interpreted incorrectly) as he was not acting out of sin but out out of custom and culture.

 

[restored&adopted]

I would say there is the Word of God which transcends language, and that if one's heart is right, then the language of Scripture is immaterial, as the Spirit will lead one to understanding and illuminate the soul.

Nefesh is translated as psyche (Gk) anima [Lt) – Body
Ruach – nous/pneuma – spiritus – Mind
Neshamah – pneuma/pnoe – spiritus/spiraculum/habitus – Spirit

I agree with the first.

I understand it differently as you cannot try and compare the Ruach of The Creator to a "spiritus"

Nephesh = life/soul
Ruach = Essence which is not just thought so cannot be limited to Mind.
Neshamah = breath

 

[restored&adopted]

Ah, no ... the three terms are noun, adjective and verb of the same root, as are the uses of holy, so that's rather a misleading claim.

The root of 'holly' is not the same as 'holy' ... that's confabulation.


On the other hand, there might be more to the Greek than meets your eye.

Does not matter how it is used in context. To try to remove the reverence of the most High and support it is a dangerous game.

Yes there is more to the Greek and it puts people on a ship to Tarshish.
If you look at your avatar. What do you think Ie-ohannes mean?
Maybe got something to do with the hat the Pope wears?
El Elyon's mountain is Tsyon and not Olympus.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Sources for the statement about Paul living out his life in Spain.

I was going to ask that very question.

 

[restored&adopted]

I was going to ask that very question.

Acts 29

 

[Thomas]

Paul was not killed but lived out his life in Spain...

Well we don't know.

Popular tradition says he died in Rome. Sources suggest he intended to visit Spain, or that he might have done, and returned to Rome and was executed – beheaded – as a Roman citizen.

Acts 29, appears in London in 1871 According to its editor, it is a translation by a French zoologist Sonnini de Manoncourt from a "Greek manuscript discovered in the archives at Constantinople and presented to him by the Sultan Abdoul Achmet" supposedly found hidden in an English translation of Sonnini's Voyage en Grèce et en Turquie in the library of Sir John Newport, MP (1756–1843) after his death.

According to Acts 29, Paul visited Britain and preached to a tribe of Israelites on "Mount Lud" (Ludgate Hill – later the site of St Paul's Cathedral) – here clearly a cross-reference to St Paul at the Areopagus (Acts 17). He also met Druids who proved to him that they were descended from Jews. Paul then preached in France and Belgium, and then to Switzerland, where a miraculous earthquake occurred at the site of Pontius Pilate's supposed suicide.

Suffice to say ... somewhat fanciful. However, no trace of any such manuscript has even been found, nor why such a valuable document would have been given to a zoologist ...

 

[Faithfulservant]

Acts 29

Oh good grief.

 

[Thomas]

Religion was set in place to divide and conquer.

You think that's why The Lord God chose the People of Israel – to divide and conquer?