The Lord's Day

juantoo3 said:
While this may (or may not) be true, those fragments would have been historical curiosities, not much different than the Dead Sea Scrolls or Nag Hamadi. I don't think Christianity would have survived as a religion, therefor the sheer quantity would have been drastically reduced...ergo, more subject to disappearing into the mists of time.

Why doesn't Mithraism still exist today? Christianity would have been another footnote in the history books, if a note at all.
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For this...and this alone....all of Christianity owes a debt of gratitude to the Catholic church...whatever anyone may say about its flaws or misdeeds since, flip side, for this alone all who dispise what Christianity has done (crusades, colonialism, forced conversions, the zealots, martyrs, missioniries) the Church must take the blame for what it has wrought.

History will judge the actual cost benefit analysis...if it isn't covered up by the winners...lol
 
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wil said:
Christianity has done (crusades, colonialism, forced conversions, the zealots, martyrs, missioniries)
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Am I starting to see into you? Christianity did not do this, man did this. Jesus taught a way of peace. Like I have said before, I don't like the word "Christian" since it has such a bad flavor in most people's mouth. True Christianity does not involve a church, especially the Catholic church. There has been so much wrong from people who wanted power using the man-made religion called christianity. I prefer Christ follower which is where the spin off came. Those who follow Jesus, not a church.
 
juantoo3 said:
The problem with your assessment is that G!d *did* preserve His writings...you're just not particularly enamored of how He went about it. Neither am I enamored of it, but it is what it is.

Even *if* sufficient fragments could have been preserved of Christian texts, that does not guarantee historically that the *religion* would have survived. Without political backing, religion is dead in the water. That is simple sociocultural fact. When the various branches of Paganism (Roman, Greek, Egyptian) lost political backing, they disappeared. Show me anywhere that people still today observe Roman/Greek/Egyptian Paganism? Even if you can show a very tiny minority that observe in some "middle finger in the air" to contemporary modernity, they have no political clout and are meaningless on the world stage. None of the examples you show above do anything to refute this.

This is the part I go back and forth with Thomas about; without political support, religion is toothless.
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I didn't say I wasn't enamored with how He went about it. I am just making the point that without the Catholic Church, the Bible would have survived. I made that point. Historians have made that point. My examples easily refute this. Saying that they don't is simply an opinion. I can start citing some books on the matter if that would make you happy. The same sources that prove my point also prove that the Catholic Church did a good job at their process of transcribing. Over the years I have defended how the Catholic Church preserved biblical manuscripts. My only criticism, as you have already seen, is how the Catholic church reacted to the masses obtaining copies of the Bible. Mainly in English.

I spent time in the jungles of Guatemala. I spoke to many Mayans about their religious beliefs and customs. The Mayan religion still exists. It is still common amongst the indigenous people of Guatemala. Their customs, religion, and records were almost obliterated. The religion still exists. One could argue that Roman/Greek/Egyptian Paganism exists in modern Christianity. Witchcraft still exists. Many witches still hold onto ancient beliefs. They don't have tons of preserved religious writings. But they have preserved old traditions.
 
I didn't say I wasn't enamored with how He went about it.
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Which is good, because that is also what I said.

Modern witchcraft only goes back to Gerald Gardner, most of that stuff is retro / reconstruction. The folks into that, if being honest, will tell you what they do is an educated guess. Most of the grimoires were preserved...wait for it...in the monasteries, with one exception (Icelandic). These were, for lack of a better description, nature religion. Celtic is one main branch (the branch I learned a wee bit of). These were always at odds with the Church, and the Romans before them (the Teutons, Germanic peoples, in addition to the Celts).

I don't know how else to get across, even if the books somehow survived does not mean the religion would. And I agree, much of the Paganism from that period seeped into Christianity, that is where a LOT of the pomp and circumstance comes from, "baptized" as Thomas puts it...no argument from me there. But the actual Paganism is long gone.

And while I empathize with the Mayans, human sacrifice is not acceptable. And the Mayan religion is not a major player on the world stage.
 
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juantoo3 said:
I don't know how else to get across, even if the books somehow survived does not mean the religion would.
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Right, aren't there ancient texts of long dead religions in libraries and archives?
Communities, traditions, and texts.. not too far off the statement "Scripture, tradition, and reason" or some churches saying "Scripture, tradition, reason, and experience" to form the contemporary living religion.

In context to what you are both saying, it sounds like preserved text and active communities would be essential.
 
TheLightWithin said:
Right, aren't there ancient texts of long dead religions in libraries and archives?
Communities, traditions, and texts.. not too far off the statement "Scripture, tradition, and reason" or some churches saying "Scripture, tradition, reason, and experience" to form the contemporary living religion.

In context to what you are both saying, it sounds like preserved text and active communities would be essential.
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Exactly

I would only add the necessity of political backing and support, without which a religion doesn't have a snowball's chance in...hades.
 
juantoo3 said:
You do realize the scriptoriums were inside monasteries...?


Dead Sea Scrolls have nothing to do with the New Testament,

I can't speak to the others without researching, but I am seeing a game similar to what I go through with others (including Thomas) stacking a list of "references" that may or may not have anything to do with the subject at hand.

Retention of fragments, quotations (even of "lost" books), potential complete books and other historical finds and references was never in question...preservation of the religion is the question. I personally think you are conflating the two issues, presuming on your part that mere preservation of the documents, the "word," in and of itself would preserve the religion. I question that, for at best one would have some marginalized peripheral group ostracized by the majority pushed to some isolated side out of the way somewhere...or more likely some modern retro wannabees resurrecting an old forgotten cult, otherwise the Biblical texts would be no more than Homer or Livy...historic curiosities.

The religion is far more than the written words. The same is true of every significant religion.
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I was grabbing whatever fragments weren't authored by the Catholic Church. So yes, that particular codex was stored by the Catholic Church. Just not written by them. My bad

I didn't realize that Father O'Callaghan and C. H. Roberts's discoveries of the New Testament were now considered incorrect about the Dead Sea Scrolls. Their original findings were that the books of the following portions of the NT were quoted in the Dead Seas Scrolls: Mark 6:52-53, 1 Timothy 3:16, 4:1 Mark 4:28, Acts 27:38 Mark 12:17, James 1:23-24, Romans 5:11-12, 2 Peter 1:15, and Mark 6:48-49. These were from Cave 7. These were in Greek, not Hebrew. However most believe that these writings were independent of the Bible and possibly inspired the NT writings. But yes, I guess that one isn't confirmed.
My point is that the Bible would have survived without the Catholic Church. Now you say that wasn't in question. So we agree. Would Christianity have been preserved without the Catholic Church? I'd say that the Catholic Church has been a double-edged sword for that one. I really don't want to dive into that one.
 
juantoo3 said:
Exactly

I would only add the necessity of political backing and support, without which a religion doesn't have a snowball's chance in...hades.
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Political backing? The marriage of politics and religion to preserve religion? I'm beginning to feel sick. The atheist in me just shuddered.
 
Why? Religion and Politics were bedfellows going way back, probably into prehistory, and continued until 1776. This has been the historic norm, separation of church and state is a very recent experiment and diversion from the historic norm.
 
juantoo3 said:
Which is good, because that is also what I said.

Modern witchcraft only goes back to Gerald Gardner, most of that stuff is retro / reconstruction. The folks into that, if being honest, will tell you what they do is an educated guess. Most of the grimoires were preserved...wait for it...in the monasteries, with one exception (Icelandic). These were, for lack of a better description, nature religion. Celtic is one main branch (the branch I learned a wee bit of). These were always at odds with the Church, and the Romans before them (the Teutons, Germanic peoples, in addition to the Celts).

I don't know how else to get across, even if the books somehow survived does not mean the religion would. And I agree, much of the Paganism from that period seeped into Christianity, that is where a LOT of the pomp and circumstance comes from, "baptized" as Thomas puts it...no argument from me there. But the actual Paganism is long gone.

And while I empathize with the Mayans, human sacrifice is not acceptable. And the Mayan religion is not a major player on the world stage.
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But the Mayan religion existed and still exists with or without political backing. Millions still exist. I have met many Native American tribes (and belong to one) and they didn't have a large church to keep their beliefs going. But their religions are still going.

Not sure what human sacrifice has to do with the matter. Many native religions aren't major players in the world stage. That had to do with some groups of people killing them off and the arrival of new diseases. But I have already been arguing on here that original Christianity doesn't really exist anymore anyway. It's just Paganism sprinkled with Christ. So your counterpoint is that without the Catholic Church, Christianity wouldn't be a large player anymore. I say the Christianity practiced by the apostles and Jesus Himself is practically dead. So it didn't matter.
 
juantoo3 said:
Why? Religion and Politics were bedfellows going way back, probably into prehistory, and continued until 1776. This has been the historic norm, separation of church and state is a very recent experiment and diversion from the historic norm.
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Because I study history. Politics mixed with religion brings blood shedding. Just look at what happened to Catholics in the British monarchy when Henry VIII decided to kick out the Catholic Church? A LOT of Catholics were starved, killed, and persecuted. Just because a king wanted to be able to divorce his wife for dishonorable reasons.
 
moralorel said:
But the Mayan religion existed and still exists with or without political backing. Millions still exist. I have met many Native American tribes (and belong to one) and they didn't have a large church to keep their beliefs going. But their religions are still going.

Not sure what human sacrifice has to do with the matter. Many native religions aren't major players in the world stage. That had to do with some groups of people killing them off and the arrival of new diseases. But I have already been arguing on here that original Christianity doesn't really exist anymore anyway. It's just Paganism sprinkled with Christ. So your counterpoint is that without the Catholic Church, Christianity wouldn't be a large player anymore. I say the Christianity practiced by the apostles and Jesus Himself is practically dead. So it didn't matter.
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I suppose that is one way of looking at it. And I am not the arbiter of what way is the correct way.

In my way, I chose to go to the source...which I found to be exceedingly difficult. In so doing, I did find the same things you did, and I understand them for what they are.

But a crucial point that continues to go missing is the application, the doing, of whatever faith it is you find yourself immersed in.

Perhaps ignorance *is* bliss, maybe there's a reason for the blinders on the eyes of the vast majority of Christians about the history of their faith. Maybe it isn't nefarious, maybe it is a good thing...again, it isn't mine to say. I do see and understand that there are decent people who do the best they understand with the path of Christianity...that's my glass half full way of looking at it. It is also true that many things have been done in the name of the Church that are despicable, to be polite, and that is the glass half empty way of looking at the matter. Both are true, but that is also human nature, all of us, everywhere, are both good and bad. What do we develop? What do we nurture? What do we emphasize? What do we routinely practice? What do we ritually practice?

The answer will be different for each individual.
 
moralorel said:
Because I study history. Politics mixed with religion brings blood shedding. Just look at what happened to Catholics in the British monarchy when Henry VIII decided to kick out the Catholic Church? A LOT of Catholics were starved, killed, and persecuted. Just because a king wanted to be able to divorce his wife for dishonorable reasons.
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I study history too, if it doesn't show already.

Just because the US Army wanted to steal the land from the Native Americans they slaughtered the buffalo which was the food source, and they introduced smallpox on blankets traded "in good faith," and broke almost all treaties ever made....and that's just the United States.

How many atrocities do you want to list? Religion has been the basis of war for ages. Man's inhumanity to man is nothing new.

And it doesn't dismiss the inherent reality that politics and religion were hand in hand throughout most of human history.
 
juantoo3 said:
I study history too, if it doesn't show already.

Just because the US Army wanted to steal the land from the Native Americans they slaughtered the buffalo which was the food source, and they introduced smallpox on blankets traded "in good faith," and broke almost all treaties ever made....and that's just the United States.

How many atrocities do you want to list? Religion has been the basis of war for ages. Man's inhumanity to man is nothing new.

And it doesn't dismiss the inherent reality that politics and religion were hand in hand throughout most of human history.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but I do believe that you agreed with a point I made awhile back (different thread). Not one government ever followed the Bible. Governments use distorted religion (amongst many other things) in order to get mass approval for persecution of others.

Mankind doesn't need religion to do evil. We're quite capable of doing evil without it. Politics and religion go hand in hand in this world. The King of this world loves that fact I'm sure.
 
moralorel said:
But I have already been arguing on here that original Christianity doesn't really exist anymore anyway. It's just Paganism sprinkled with Christ.
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Interesting opinion, care to give a concrete example of how the essential elements of Christianity are pagan?

Or what the Christianity was that you think no longer exists?

Heads up: Not necessarily going to argue, it's just for my own enlightenment.
 
As a corollary to the above –

I do not accept that the celebration of the Lord's Day is of pagan derivation.

It's founded on Scripture (the Resurrection), it's argued from Scripture (the 'new creation' and 'new covenant' theologies), and even Christ's own words ... but we've been over this before.
 
moralorel said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but I do believe that you agreed with a point I made awhile back (different thread). Not one government ever followed the Bible. Governments use distorted religion (amongst many other things) in order to get mass approval for persecution of others.

Mankind doesn't need religion to do evil. We're quite capable of doing evil without it. Politics and religion go hand in hand in this world. The King of this world loves that fact I'm sure.
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Human nature is convoluted and complex.

I could list examples to support your premise...all it would do is serve to piss people off, but the history is there for anybody to see if they look.

Evil is the absence of G!d. Much evil has been done for religious reasons, that does not mean G!d sanctioned it (Old Testament notwithstanding).

You suggested the Guatemalan government does not support the Mayan religion...I can comfortably guarantee they don't impede that religion either, and odds are strong that many in the government practice the Mayan religion. That provides a large degree of government sanction and protection. If this were not so, and the government decided to do away with the Mayan religion...there are a lot of nasty things that can be done, and historically have been done elsewhere to eradicate a faith that a government wants to disappear.
 
Thomas said:
Interesting opinion, care to give a concrete example of how the essential elements of Christianity are pagan?

Or what the Christianity was that you think no longer exists?

Heads up: Not necessarily going to argue, it's just for my own enlightenment.
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I consider you a friend, an old and dear friend at that.

I respectfully decline your offer. It would only lead to hard feelings between us.

I will only say it isn't the "essential" elements that are in question.
 
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