The Lord's Day

[Thomas]

1. She's not mistaken.

In your opinion. I beg to differ.

2. Yes, and even the Catholic church has admitted this. If you really think that Christmas, Easter, Purgatory ...

OK. Where does any of this contradict Scripture?

then you must have a Bible that tells people to drown sinners when they see visions of Elijah and Moses.

LOL. How on earth did you come to that conclusion?

3. We've been over this before. You told me a couple months ago that quotes from Catholic websites, Catholic encyclopedias, Catholic priests, Catholic professors, Catholic cardinals, Catholic bishops, and Catholic popes are not valid claims. You still haven't explained why.

Because they could be wrong. They have been, in the past, even popes.

But the catechism also claims that the Catholic church changed the Sabbath to Sunday by its own authority.

The reason why Christians celebrate the Sabbath on the Lord's Day and not according to Jewish practice is clearly explained in the Catechism. You don't have to like it, but you do rather have to show its wrong if that's your argument.

So now I guess I just have to believe whatever you say. How can you not see why your argument is highly suspect to me?

I can see you're not really following the argument, it seems to me you just reject it outright.

4. My claim is that the Catholic church changed the Sabbath by their own self-given authority.

And there's the error – the Sabbath still holds for the Jews and we recognise that. The Christian Church (not just the Catholic Church) celebrate their 'day of rest' on the Lord's Day for a number of theological reasons, supported by Scripture, which is explained in the Catechism. If you want me to take you through it, please read, and then we can discuss.

Of course, then Passover just went away for the same reason I guess.
From Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma: (pps 184-185)
"St. Paul most clearly of all bears witness to the sacrificial character of Christ's death on the Cross. Ephesians 5:2 "... Christ also hath loved us and hath delivered Himself for us, an oblation and a sacrifice, to God as a sweet odour (as a pleasing sacrifice)." 1 Corinthians 5:7: "For Christ our Pasch is sacrificed." Romans 3:25: "Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation through faith in his blood."

The atoning blood is, however, according to Holy Scripture (cf. Leviticus 17:11) sacrificial blood. Hebrews 9:I-10 & 18 describes the superiority of the sacrifice offered by Christ on the Cross over the Old Testament sacrifices 9:28: "So also Christ was offered to exhaust the sins of many." (cf. I John 2:2).

Christ Himself indirectly designated His death on the Cross as a sacrifice for the sins of men, by using the biblical sacrificial terms "giving up of life" and shedding of blood".: Matthew 20:28 (Mark 10:45): For the Son of Man also is not come to be administered unto; but to minister and to give His life a Redemption for many."

In the inauguration of the Holy Eucharist He indicates the sacrificiaI character of His death. Luke 22:19: "This is my body which is given for you." Matthew 26:28: "This is my blood of the New Testament which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins."

This, p370
Prefigures of the Eucharist are the Tree of Life in Paradise, the sacrifices of Abraham and Melchisedech, the manna in the desert, the Shew-bread in the Temple, and the various sacrifices of the Old Covenant, especially that of the Paschal Lamb.

Went away? Please. It's absolutely central to Christianity. Christ is the Paschal Lamb, and in Him, and His sacrifice, is summed up the history of Israel.

I don't disagree that the Lord's Day is the Sabbath. I claim that scripturally it is still Saturday.

For the Jews, yes. But, as said before, Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, so take it up with Him.

 

[Thomas]

"Breaking bread" was simply a meal, nothing more.

Well that's an opinion. I'd say logically the Christians met for their own Liturgy in their own houses on a Sunday as they could hardly do so on a Saturday.

Much to my chagrin Christians of my acquaintance are woefully uninformed of the history of their faith.

All ad hominem.

I just think you give Constantine too much credit.

 

[juantoo3]

All ad hominem.

It was an observation, not an argument in debate.

<edit>Rereading this I see now how my words may have come across insulting. For that I apologize, I assure it was not intended. By acquaintance I meant the general populace...no, you folks here are old friends....you are so much more to me than an acquaintance, I need you to know that @Thomas

I just think you give Constantine too much credit.

which further reinforces my observation...

 

[Faithfulservant]

"Breaking bread" was simply a meal, nothing more.

Acts 20 was a going away party and Paul got long winded. Somehow that was converted into justification for the change of the day finalized by Constantine in 321ad.

Much to my chagrin Christians of my acquaintance are woefully uninformed of the history of their faith. They don't know, and they don't want to know, and the institution(s) don't encourage learning that history. I've already shown plenty that should make a thoughtful person at least take another look...but most Christians dismiss it all with a wave of the hand and no consideration at all. Jews are Jews, they don't deserve any consideration, they are those weird people who do all those crazy things and have those weird Holy Days and they don't know what they are talking about....that is the usual thought process, with only minor variations, by people who are otherwise absorbed in the cares of the world like paying bills and which school to send their kids to.

A person who knows it all already cannot be taught.

1 Corinthians 11:23-26
For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body, which is for you.

Luke 24:35 (NKJV)
35 And they told about the things that had happened on the road, and how He was known to them in the breaking of bread

Acts 2:42 (NKJV)
42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers

Acts 20:7 (NKJV)
7 Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight..

Corinthians 10:16 (NKJV)
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

Whether it's the Lord's supper or not there is still the practice of "breaking bread" on the first day of the week.

I take STRONG offense to your eluding to Jews vs Gentile that Christians think they are "weird". This has nothing to do with how Jews practice their relationship with G!d but how the church has entered into a new covenant with God and how it is practiced scripturally.

.

 

[juantoo3]

I take STRONG offense to your eluding to Jews vs Gentile that Christians think they are "weird". This has nothing to do with how Jews practice their relationship with G!d but how the church has entered into a new covenant with God and how it is practiced scripturally.

Strong opinion evokes strong emotions. I intended no personal offense, but my observation over many decades is what it is.

Do you observe Passover? Or Easter?

 

[Faithfulservant]

My Family celebrates Resurrection Sunday. I colored Easter eggs with my children when they were young and hid eggs for them to find filled with candy and money.. I took them trick or treating.. they had pictures taken with Santa Claus. We hid their teeth under pillows for the tooth fairy. We do not celebrate Passover as the Jews do as Jesus is the Passover Lamb we do communion as a time of refection of His sacrifice. My children are both grown and saved and have a healthy grasp of reality and a wonderful relationship with Jesus. Their fruits are apparent and that's how we know them.. right??

I want to ask YOU. Why do you have such a problem with the day in which we worship when we don't have an issue with the day that you worship? If we are not convicted as you are but accept that each man will celebrate a certain day or all days alike . Why does that bother you? Check your feelings maybe? Anytime our feelings get involved we need to get to the root of it. I am an emotional person and I have to remind myself of this all the time.

 

[juantoo3]

I want to ask YOU. Why do you have such a problem with the day in which we worship when we don't have an issue with the day that you worship?

Au contraire...who has said all along "it isn't about what you believe, it is about what you do with what you believe?"

What you are telling me here is that I have no right to a personal connection with the Divine...and I will go to my death disputing that contention.

I've allowed you to your beliefs, you do not allow me the same courtesy.

I've held my voice for a very long time around here, don't you think I've earned the right to finally voice my position?

 

[Thomas]

I colored Easter eggs with my children when they were young and hid eggs for them to find filled with candy and money.

The practice is not quite the same in England. We had Easter Eggs when I was young, but painting eggs etc. was not so much a big deal.

Generally, like Halloween, I think the tradition came back from the US in the last 50 yeats or so.

I took them trick or treating.

Yeah, no-one did that when I was a kid.

they had pictures taken with Santa Claus.

Oh, we did that.

We hid their teeth under pillows for the tooth fairy.

Yeah, did that too.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Au contraire...who has said all along "it isn't about what you believe, it is about what you do with what you believe?"

What you are telling me here is that I have no right to a personal connection with the Divine...and I will go to my death disputing that contention.

I've allowed you to your beliefs, you do not allow me the same courtesy.

I've held my voice for a very long time around here, don't you think I've earned the right to voice my position?

It is not that you have your belief and follow it my friend . It is how you are presenting your belief as if to do it other than your way is wrong or man made by the Catholic church. We are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses urging us to finish the race!

That is the only reason why I am defending Sunday as an early church practice.

I have the utmost respect for you and I am suggesting that there is no wrong here as i agree with Paul. We can discuss the differences in theology without accusing the brethren of something so heinous as looking down on our Jewish brothers and sisters for THEIR practices of honoring G!d or yourself for your practice of honoring G!d. Nobody has done that and if they did I would say something to them as well.

 

[juantoo3]

OK, but that emotional inference is not put there by me.

I am merely presenting my understanding, quietly and clearly.

 

[Faithfulservant]

OK, but that emotional inference is not put there by me.

I am merely presenting my understanding, quietly and clearly.

I just giggled.. you can't relay that in text can you?maybe this one? A few posts ago you used the term "most Christians " with what I feel is an exaggerated generalization on what Christians believe. I don't know how many active Bible believing Christians post here but I feel the few of us that do have not said anything like what you implied. If we are a representative of the number of Christians then "most" would be a little off. It's so true that one bad apple spoils the bunch and it's a testament of the corruption in this world that we remember the bad over the good.

 

[RJM]

"Breaking bread" was simply a meal, nothing more.

It was far more to the Essenes?

Yes, but your argument is that the doctrines are based off of scripture... and then you abandoned scripture. "Spirit of the law" doesn't mean "abandon scripture and follow your own dogma spiritually".

Fact is, in spite of the faults of men, the Catholic Church carried the Christian message down for nearly a millennium-and-a-half right through the dark ages until Luther and the printing press only 600 years ago. The perception of the Church bullying and persecuting peasants is mostly false. The Church was all the peasants had. Think of the American southern slaves, and their poignant hymns.

Not to say there have never been corrupt humans who abuse the life and message of Christ for gain. But the Catholic Church has survived and risen from it all, and today stands like a rock amidst the confusion and argument of the televangelist-type self-improvement and 'go get the good things life' message.

The Catholic Church is out there working with the poorest and most deprived people, in the most difficult and dangerous places in the world. The hope of Christ is often all those people have to sustain their spirit.

Sunday has remained the special day of rest and worship for 2000 years, so what's the point of arguing about it now?

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 16:18&version=KJV

A third of the world population are Christian, and a third of those are Catholic. So, in reality it seems to haver worked out the way Christ said?

IMO

 

[juantoo3]

It was far more to the Essenes?

How so?

 

[RJM]

How so?

It took years of training for a novice to be admitted to share 'the pure meal' of the Essenes. There are hints that John the Baptist knew about the Essenes -- perhaps Jesus too. There are people who believe John the Baptist was an Essene.

"Josephus records that after the purification ceremony of the Essenes, the sectarians assembled to partake of the communal meal: "After this purification they assemble in a private apartment which none of the uninitiated is permitted to enter; pure now themselves, they repair to the refectory, as to some sacred shrine" (War, II, viii, 5) ..." etc

A Human Sanctuary

public.cyi.ac.cy

(Link chosen at random for reference)

 

[juantoo3]

pretty sure any connection between John Baptist or Jesus to the Essenes has been debunked at this point.

That a group (Mithraism for example) has a sacred meal does not mean every meal is a sacred meal. That's rather the point I'm making that the phrase "breaking bread" does not in and of itself mean or even imply that it is or must be a sacred meal - it can and by far most often simply means a meal, any meal.

 

[Faithfulservant]

I agree that it could mean the Lords Supper or simply fellowshipping with other believers.. what we are called to do in scripture

 

[juantoo3]

I just giggled.. you can't relay that in text can you?maybe this one? A few posts ago you used the term "most Christians " with what I feel is an exaggerated generalization on what Christians believe.

As I recall, I was talking about how most Christians of my acquaintance are unknowledgeable about the history of their own faith. I don't believe that is an inaccurate statement, though I can understand the response.

 

[juantoo3]

I agree that it could mean the Lords Supper or simply fellowshipping with other believers.. what we are called to do in scripture

You and I could break bread together tonight...or maybe not if you live in the NorthWest and I live in the SouthEast but I hope you get my drift. It really has nothing to do with religious belief, of any kind. It can be applied as you say, it can also and is also applied as I say.

 

[wil]

the Lord's day is every day

This is the the day that the lord hath made, let us rejoice and be glad in it.

 

[Faithfulservant]

You and I could break bread together tonight...or maybe not if you live in the NorthWest and I live in the SouthEast but I hope you get my drift. It really has nothing to do with religious belief, of any kind. It can be applied as you say, it can also and is also applied as I say.

You know.. I feel we are fellowshipping a lot of the times we are posting with each other. I may be eating a piece of toast in Texas and you are eating a piece of toast in Florida so we are breaking bread together. Since God is outside space and time and we are talking about Him? I don't put God in a box as to what brings Him Glory.

As far as fellowshipping with one another what is Biblical Fellowship? The word fellowship is derived from the Greek word koinonia. Koinonia can be defined as “holding something in common” and is specifically used 20 times in the New Testament Phil. 2:1-2, Acts 2:42, 1 John 1:6-7 etc..

We have more in common than not and we have in common the thing that is most important.