The Lord's Day

The best example a Christian can give, is the example of his (her) life. Do you walk the talk?

If you don't, plainly and clearly, ummm people will see you for who you are.

You can't hide your heart from G!d.
 
We have more in common than not and we have in common the thing that is most important.
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We forget to look at each others' hearts because we are so busy in our heads. We have to do, we can't stay confined to just thinking our way through life, there are aspects of life - including connecting with others, we are social animals - that are not thinking aspects of life, they are doing aspects of life. Ultimately those doing aspects are those things that broadcast what kind of heart we have.
 
We are also told not to waste our breath on those who will not hear. Plant the seed, and move on.

The growing is between the seed and G!d. Don't matter how close you tend it, the growing belongs to G!d, make no mistake.

My heart is thrilled to see you back, @Faithfulservant , but I truly am sorry for your loss. In fairness he was a pita sometimes, but one I respected.

I don't know why I'm here right now. My buddy buddy was dying, my brother's a jerk, had a moment very recently I was staring at the prospect of becoming a dad as I preparing to retire...and Mercury was in retrograde. I don't know why, but I feel like I need to be here now.

Please allow me to clarify, my nieces and nephews are fine...I don't want to give more details, please.
 
juantoo3 said:
We are also told not to waste our breath on those who will not hear. Plant the seed, and move on.

The growing is between the seed and G!d. Don't matter how close you tend it, the growing belongs to G!d, make no mistake.

My heart is thrilled to see you back, @Faithfulservant , but I truly am sorry for your loss. In fairness he was a pita sometimes, but one I respected.

I don't know why I'm here right now. My buddy buddy was dying, my brother's a jerk, had a moment very recently I was staring at the prospect of becoming a dad as I preparing to retire...and Mercury was in retrograde. I don't know why, but I feel like I need to be here now.

Please allow me to clarify, my nieces and nephews are fine...I don't want to give more details, please.
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Oh my friend . I was called back here as well I don't question why it just is.. I have to tell you that Dor was a baby Christian. I led him to the Lord just a few years prior to us joining CR...baby Christians are very enthusiastic? Silas was a baby Christian which is why we were so protective of him.

I'm sorry for your tribulations. God is Good and tribulations bring perseverance and perseverance brings character and character Hope. I'm feeling sappy right now as I'm listening to worship music and I really love old hymns like As The Deer.
 
I can see now how Dor was upset in the one thread and that probably made him angry enough... I wish I remembered more of the incident, I don't know what Silas did to set me off, but if I recall that wasn't far from the end when Brian let me go, and I was doing things with no guidance.

The pay really sucked, and the benefits were pretty well non-existent other than the water cooler talk in the hallway. I'm sorry if I did anything to offend.

I think I mentioned before I consider that period of time like herding cats.
 
juantoo3 said:
I can see now how Dor was upset in the one thread and that probably made him angry enough... I wish I remembered more of the incident, I don't know what Silas did to set me off, but if I recall that wasn't far from the end when Brian let me go, and I was doing things with no guidance.

The pay really sucked, and the benefits were pretty well non-existent other than the water cooler talk in the hallway. I'm sorry if I did anything to offend.

I think I mentioned before I consider that period of time like herding cats.
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I was laughing my butt off when I reread that thread! I don't remember what set Dor off he was already worked up from other threads . I feel like his issue was with Q and I was on the defensive as I felt the thread was a set up. Silas was over enthusiastic and probably proselytizing and would have set off anyone that was more seasoned along with our illustrious over worked mods. I just felt like we needed to show more grace.

I thought you were a wonderful mod and I think you need to stop apologizing!
 
RJM said:
It was far more to the Essenes?

Fact is, in spite of the faults of men, the Catholic Church carried the Christian message down for nearly a millennium-and-a-half right through the dark ages until Luther and the printing press only 600 years ago. The perception of the Church bullying and persecuting peasants is mostly false. The Church was all the peasants had. Think of the American southern slaves, and their poignant hymns.

Not to say there have never been corrupt humans who abuse the life and message of Christ for gain. But the Catholic Church has survived and risen from it all, and today stands like a rock amidst the confusion and argument of the televangelist-type self-improvement and 'go get the good things life' message.

The Catholic Church is out there working with the poorest and most deprived people, in the most difficult and dangerous places in the world. The hope of Christ is often all those people have to sustain their spirit.

Sunday has remained the special day of rest and worship for 2000 years, so what's the point of arguing about it now?

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 16:18&version=KJV

A third of the world population are Christian, and a third of those are Catholic. So, in reality it seems to haver worked out the way Christ said?

IMO
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If by carrying the Christian message, you mean adding Paganism to scripture, then yes they did carry a Christian message.

I don't deny that the Catholic Church has been helping many poor and deprived people. They also have been one of the biggest bullies of the world. The Spanish Inquisition alone was hundreds of years of persecution. But maybe that is also the Catholic church carrying a Christian message.

Sunday worship has not been a Christian special day of rest and worship for 2000 years. It was another pagan practice that gained traction while churches, like the Catholic church, seeked to join Pagan members to their masses. It definitely isn't scriptural.

And Christ said that He wanted a third of the world to be Christian? Really? I'm certain that there are 2 things wrong with that statement. 1. He wants ALL to come to His way. 2. He prophesised that only a few thousand saints would join Him when He returns. Quite certain that is far short of 1/3 or even 1/6th of the world.
 
And Christ said that He wanted a third of the world to be Christian?
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I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I don't think this was interpreted quite correctly. By saying "A third of the world population are Christian" it wasn't what Christ said He wanted. It was being noted that about a third of the First World population, approx, is Christian. I forget the exact order but Islam, Buddhist and what I know as Hindu make up another almost 2/3 of the population. Kinda hard to parse considering China probably has about a third of the world population and it is officially atheist. India is the next sizeable population and it includes Hindu and Buddhist, and if you include Pakistan there is a sizeable Islamic population as well.

I think RJM was simply pointing out some rough guess estimates of population statistics.

Carry on.
 
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Thomas said:
OK. Can we discuss one example, else this is going nowhere.


Your opinion, not mine. I can justify my position, I'm wondering if you can?


Let's please stay on point. A literal reading of the texts in question would suggest just that, wouldn't it?


OK. Can you explain what you mean by 'literally'?

You seem to be saying unless it's literally spelled out, it's a made-up doctrine.

You can't have it both ways.
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1. The example you just gave! You even stated "the doctrine in question might not be spelled out in Scripture".
2. The only way you have tried to justify your position is by saying "you're mistaken" or just flat out disagreeing. That is not how you justify an opinion. I gave facts, you just disregarded them and answered with opinion.
3. You quoted two verses about the vision of Elijah and Moses with Jesus. You claimed that they were literally telling us to drown sinners. THAT is why I am so confused. What do those verses have to do with your argument? I already explained the other verse. Pretty self explanatory. Go back and look up your verses. Tell me they make sense to your point.
4. I'm saying that if scripture overall supports it, then it can be doctrine. It's pretty simple. Just like anybody else would know that a vision of Elijah and Moses doesn't mean that a new doctrine of drowning sinners is now official. You literally make zero sense. I expect much more out of you. I'm not asking for anything to be both ways. Just sound scriptural evidence. Both ways? That would be like taking human traditions and trying to make scripture adhere to these traditions and then making a doctrine out of them. Which is what you are doing, and you appear to be admitting it.
 
juantoo3 said:
I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I don't think this was interpreted quite correctly. By saying "A third of the world population are Christian" it wasn't what Christ said He wanted. It was being noted that about a third of the First World population, approx, is Christian. I forget the exact order but Islam, Buddhist and what I know as Hindu make up another almost 2/3 of the population. Kinda hard to parse considering China probably has about a third of the world population and it is officially atheist. India is the next sizeable population and it includes Hindu and Buddhist, and if you include Pakistan there is a sizeable Islamic population as well.

I think RJM was simply pointing out some rough guess estimates of population statistics.

Carry on.
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Doesn't change my point at all.
 
Thomas said:
No, it's not – I read according to the traditional 'Four Senses of Scripture'.

That tradition itself derives from Judaism, and like Judaism, Christianity is a belief in Scripture and Tradition – the latter clearly in the distinction between the written Torah and the oral Torah.

The Church teaches "The books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation."

So the belief in Scripture and Tradition goes hand in hand.


But there's no supposed about it.


Well if we follow Scripture, we're not sure what day of the week the crucifixion was, the later tradition assuming a Friday, from the reading of the Synoptic text, whereas John offers an alternative which would make it Thursday. All agree the resurrection was on a Sunday.

Likewise, we hold to the 'Matthew, Mark, Luke and John' when it comes to the Gospels, although we know this is a 2nd century tradition, without definitive Scriptural affirmation. Catholic dogmatic statements refers to 'the authors' and maintains anonymity.

Generally, scholars follow John as the more accurate, which coincidentally affirms the three days in the tomb.
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Sooooo Good Friday isn't scriptural? Just traditional? So that is one Catholic tradition that isn't scriptural. Thanks for proving that one for us.

All we know about Jesus's resurrection is that it happened before Mary and Mary arrived at His tomb. It was still dark. The only reason they didn't go to His tomb on Saturday was because it was the Sabbath. The sun hadn't even risen yet on Sunday. So it's equally possible that Jesus came out of His tomb on Saturday. Is there anything biblical that specifically states, or even puts importance on, Sunday being the day Jesus rose? You admit yourself that we don't know the day that He was crucified. So He very well may have been crucified and buried on Wednesday and rose on Saturday morning. That would make Saturday the Lord's Day... like it always was. Can you show me a scripture in the Bible that specifically states that 1. Jesus was risen on Sunday and 2. That Sunday therefore became the Lord's Day because of that same reason?
 
juantoo3 said:
"Breaking bread" was simply a meal, nothing more.

Acts 20 was a going away party and Paul got long winded. Somehow that was converted into justification for the change of the day finalized by Constantine in 321ad.

Much to my chagrin Christians of my acquaintance are woefully uninformed of the history of their faith. They don't know, and they don't want to know, and the institution(s) don't encourage learning that history. I've already shown plenty that should make a thoughtful person at least take another look...but most Christians dismiss it all with a wave of the hand and no consideration at all. Jews are Jews, they don't deserve any consideration, they are those weird people who do all those crazy things and have those weird Holy Days and they don't know what they are talking about....that is the usual thought process, with only minor variations, by people who are otherwise absorbed in the cares of the world like paying bills and which school to send their kids to.

A person who knows it all already cannot be taught.
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Agreed. Breaking bread has been a long time tradition and was never exclusive to Sunday. The only Sunday that I see for breaking bread would have been Pentecost. But in my opinion Pentecost should always be on Sunday seeing as it is 50 days counted from a Sabbath.
 
Thomas said:
In your opinion. I beg to differ.


OK. Where does any of this contradict Scripture?


LOL. How on earth did you come to that conclusion?



Because they could be wrong. They have been, in the past, even popes.


The reason why Christians celebrate the Sabbath on the Lord's Day and not according to Jewish practice is clearly explained in the Catechism. You don't have to like it, but you do rather have to show its wrong if that's your argument.


I can see you're not really following the argument, it seems to me you just reject it outright.


And there's the error – the Sabbath still holds for the Jews and we recognise that. The Christian Church (not just the Catholic Church) celebrate their 'day of rest' on the Lord's Day for a number of theological reasons, supported by Scripture, which is explained in the Catechism. If you want me to take you through it, please read, and then we can discuss.
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1. In the opinion of many Catholics who have more authority than you on the matter.... so differ all you want. I would trust them because of their position.
2. Let's start with an easy example. Christmas. Chopping down a tree, putting it in your house and decorating it, and then claiming it's about Jesus's birth.... definitely not scriptural. Feel free to show the verses that defend that Pagan tradition. You already proved that Good Friday is not a scriptural Catholic custom, so that's one down.
3. So many of these people, including Popes, have been wrong? But you're not? Makes perfect sense. Can't believe I disagreed with you.
4. Catechism? You probably have a copy of this part in your home, like many Catholics do.

The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine​

3. The Third Commandment:
Q. What is the Third Commandment?
A. The Third Commandment is: Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.
Q. Which is the Sabbath Day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath Day.
Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.
Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.
Q. By what authority did the Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her.​
Q. What does the Third Commandment command?
A. The Third Commandment commands us to sanctify Sunday as the Lord’s Day.

So as you said "You don't have to like it, but you do rather have to show its wrong if that's your argument."
It agrees with my argument. So I do believe it is YOU who has to show it's wrong.

5. You haven't given me any evidence to the contrary of my argument. Unless Moses and Elijah in a vision are your evidence... which is NOT evidence.
6. Yes, feel free to give scriptures that prove the following 1. That Jesus was definitely resurrected on Sunday and 2. That Jesus changed His day of worship to Sunday. Should be easy. I already proved that plenty of Catholics agree that the church changed it based on its own perceived authority. You just need to prove those two claims and you got yourself an argument. Or you could just say "nope that's not valid" to everything I produce and provide scriptures that make zero sense.​
 
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Replace "kangaroo" with Catholic and "marsupials" with Catholics and I assume we get a summary of what Thomas and I have been going through. I felt we needed a little humor. I may disagree with a lot of you on here, and I may get a bit sarcastic, but I love you all on here!
 
juantoo3 said:
"Breaking bread" was simply a meal, nothing more.
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moralorel said:
Agreed. Breaking bread has been a long time tradition and was never exclusive to Sunday. The only Sunday that I see for breaking bread would have been Pentecost. But in my opinion Pentecost should always be on Sunday seeing as it is 50 days counted from a Sabbath.
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I have naturally assumed the breaking of bread in this context to mean the sacramental Eucharist, or communion, the body and blood of Christ -- not coffee and biscuits after the service? The Eucharistic sacrament has been practiced since the earliest times, and sometimes got Christians into trouble because of being associated with cannibalism.

Catholics can attend mass and take the Eucharist every day, not just on Sunday. At the Abbey close by there are two masses every day, quiet services without hymns and long sermons, and which centre around the receiving the Eucharist. Of course the Sunday mass is better attended, and is more elaborate with a choir and hymns
 
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juantoo3 said:
I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I don't think this was interpreted quite correctly. By saying "A third of the world population are Christian" it wasn't what Christ said He wanted. It was being noted that about a third of the First World population, approx, is Christian. I forget the exact order but Islam, Buddhist and what I know as Hindu make up another almost 2/3 of the population. Kinda hard to parse considering China probably has about a third of the world population and it is officially atheist. India is the next sizeable population and it includes Hindu and Buddhist, and if you include Pakistan there is a sizeable Islamic population as well.

I think RJM was simply pointing out some rough guess estimates of population statistics.

Carry on.
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Catholics by country:
https://www.worlddata.info/religion...churches form a,Latin Church (Western Church).

"The Catholic churches form a denomination within Christianity and, with around 1.3 billion believers worldwide, are the largest Christian grouping. The Catholics are, in turn, divided into individual churches. The Roman Catholic Church refers to the Latin Church (Western Church)"
 
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