The Lord's Day
- Thread starter Thomas
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Which is why 'the Lord's Day' is so named. Early Christians did not call it 'The Sabbath' for that reason. The Sabbath is the Jewish Day of Rest.
Simply: The Christians saw the proper observation of the Lord's Day fulfils the Divine injunction to honour the Sabbath – The Epistle to the Hebrews goes to some length to address this.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
"Lord" means something very different to the Jews.
If it works for you, that's what matters. I simply disagree.
moralorel
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The footwashing, bread, and wine were instituted right before Passover. I don't see footwashing, examining oneself, etc. in the provided passages about breaking bread.
Breaking bread is a term that has been around far before Jesus was crucified. Lamentations 4:4 ...the young children ask bread, and no man breaketh it unto them." It was simply people having a meal. It isn't even just a term used by the Abrahamic faiths and cultures.
If breaking bread automatically refers to communion, then Paul has some explaining to do. He broke break with the Roman captors. They weren't Christians. The Bible doesn't allow communion with non-baptised members. I do believe that the Catholic Church even requires baptism, but I'm probably wrong there.
Just because the apostles broke bread on a Sunday one time does NOT automatically make that day the new day of worship.
moralorel
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The Catholic church preserved Pagan customs by adopting them into their universal doctrine. I don't see Catholic holidays such as Good Friday, Easter, Christmas, Sunday worship, etc. anywhere in the Bible. But I do see a lot of these customs quite popular with the Pagans of that time.The point is that for all the failings, it is the Catholic Church that has preserved Christianity all down the ages, and which still continues to do so. The inquisition was a bad phase, but it was not what popular opinion makes it out to be. No excuses, but it is far from representative of the Catholic Church which has given many martyrs and carried the light of Christ down through the thousands of years of kings and empires and earthly rulers -- just as Christ said it would, imo
A thread about the Inquisition here:
And a video here:The Inquisition ...
Edited from the National Review: The Office of the Inquisition was instituted to give people a fair trial and put an end to widespread and often unjust executions for a theological office, by those who had little or no theological grounding, insight or understanding. The temporal authorities...www.interfaith.org
Catholic Inquisition (The real truth about the Spanish Inquisition and the Catholic Church)
Am posting this 55 min podcast in Abrahamic section because it is not just for Christians or Catholics and although I don't think most people will take the time to listen to it, I believe it is important not as a whitewash but as a realistic explanation of what actually was going down at that...
The Inquisition lasted hundreds of years. Are you sure you want to call that a "phase"? Wearing cutoff jeans is a phase. It's not what popular opinion says it is? Most people I know think it lasted a couple years. It lasted far longer than that.
Where did Jesus say the Catholic church would carry His light "down through the thousands of years of kings and empires and earthly rulers"?
moralorel
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The first Sabbath after Passover.
moralorel
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"that has no direct Scriptural validation, and yet there are Scriptural references which do not rule it out." That is where you and I differ. If a doctrine is introduced, I don't look for scripture that just might not rule it out. I see doctrine as something that should be built on scripture, not on human tradition with a sprinkle of scripture.
You don't need to bring up the scriptures about Peter being the rock etc. I already brought those up. But of course I don't believe that Peter was ever a pope (and see zero historical proof of the claim) and I don't believe that Christ gave the Catholic Church his permission to incorporate Pagan customs. I don't see it anywhere. Just like I don't see any evidence of Sunday worship replacing Saturday worship.
I'm glad you saw the scripture citation error. I was beginning to think you may have gone mad.
moralorel
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1. Your argument keeps getting lazy. Yes, it's a problem. If your church truly makes doctrine based on scripture, but has doctrine that isn't scriptural, then that doctrine should go by the wayside.
2. My English must be pretty awful. Nowhere in the verses provided do I see "Jesus rose on Sunday (first day of the week)". Mary and Mary showed up while it was still dark on Sunday morning. He had already risen. They weren't there on Saturday. He very well may have been risen on Saturday. This would be a good time for Jesus to have implemented Sunday worship. The gospels easily could have stated that this was a Sunday resurrection. Yet they just point out that He was already risen when they arrived on Sunday morning. Your claim doesn't fly. I'm simply looking for this Sunday resurrection. But I see it just as possible that He rose on Saturday.
3. Saying "The Bible says so" is just being lazy.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
This isn't my hunt...It was kind of inevitable. Where did Paul go? Where could he have gone? The world he knew was imbued, immersed in Paganism. It was Rome, it was Greece, it was Egypt, it was a smattering of other foreign religions, often brought back with the army. That was the world Paul knew outside of Judaism, and the cosmopolitan world of business during that time circled the Mediterranean.
Paul realized kosher did not apply. Kosher is reserved for "G!d's Chosen People." It is a, somewhat dubious, badge of honor. And it is one worn proudly, and earned.
The Pagans were not obligated to kosher...that is the only Law that was done away...the rest is common sense, and common human decency.
In a sense, you are asking a leopard to change its spots. The teachings were massaged? culturally, at first anyway. At this point not saying good or bad, I'm saying it was culturally expedient. Constantine was a Pagan with a Christian mother. The people he ruled were predominantly Pagan. It is what it is.
I know what you are saying, I learned all that long ago. At the same time, friends are priceless. I'm not interested in a duel to the death. I'd even rather be incorrect once in awhile. But I don't read where we are taught to tear each other down, I read where we are taught to build each other up.
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Faithfulservant
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He might be getting lazy because he keeps having to repeat himself as this topic is quite the popular one. He provided his reasoning quite clearly as to why he believes it. Why is that not ok? Every point made has been made. Everyone should go post on the wilderness thread and take a break.
moralorel
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1. Our argument started because I provided many quotes from Catholics, who had more authority on the matter than you and I, who all stated that the Catholic church changed the Sabbath to Sunday by her own authority AND that it wasn't biblical. I have said multiple times that these are NOT my opinions, just what they said. I also said that if anyone doesn't like it, take it up with these people. Now you just dismiss them as my opinion. I guess if a pope says something, and I repeat it, him and I are both wrong. Stop calling it my opinion. That's a lazy argument.Got any actual evidence, though? All of your points have been opinion so far.
We don't claim it's about Jesus' birth. The crib, all that, that's about Jesus' birth.
Research the origin of the tradition. Pagan, yes, and to do with the Winter Solstice and the promise of New Life ... so the evergreen is a fitting symbol, but that's all it is.
"This therefore hath seemed good to me, that a man should eat and drink, and enjoy the fruit of his labour, wherewith he hath laboured under the sun, all the days of his life, which God hath given him: and this is his portion. And every man to whom God hath given riches, and substance, and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to enjoy his portion, and to rejoice of his labour: this is the gift of God. 19 For he shall not much remember the days of his life, because God entertaineth his heart with delight." Ecclesiastes 5:17-19
So if a family delights in the Lord, and decorates the house with the symbols of renewal, of new birth, and new hope, then that is no offence to God as I understand God to be ... and yet if that tree should remind us of the tree in the midst of the garden, and bring to mind our sin, then all the betters, and if that tree should stand for the tree on which He was hung (cf 1 Peter 2:24], then better still ...
It really depends whether one can see past one's nose.
"For he that is not against you, is for you." (Mark 9:39, Luke 9:50).
I would ask you to read Matthew 8:5-13 and/or Luke 7:1-10 – the healing of the Centurion's daughter. The centurion is a pagan, and furthermore an oppressor, an enemy of Israel. Two points of note:
1: Jesus says: "I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel." (Luke 7:9)
2: The centurion's words: "I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed." (Luke 7:7)
These words are so profound they have found their way into the Catholic Liturgy, and rightly so – they sum up the expression of faith, hope and trust, and whoever displays such, is welcome in the House of the Lord, and the Lord will work wonders for him.
Nope. I've suggested it's an open question. My word isn't proof of anything.
No-one's infallible ... not even popes.
Well that's not for me to say, but I can understand why.
My daughter was doing a degree in Philosophy. Her friend was doing a degree in Theology. She asked my daughter if I could answer some questions on Church doctrine. So I did.
Apparently, her friend said, "Is your dad God?"
To which my daughter replied, "No, but I think they talk a lot."
+++
On a general note, I supply Scriptural evidence in support of my arguments, what do you offer?
2. "And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men" (Mark 7:7). You're right. Jesus does speak of these sorts of customs.
Jeremiah 10:2 Thus says the Lord: "Do not choose to learn according to the ways of the Gentiles. And do not be willing to dread the signs of heaven, which the Gentiles fear. 3 For the laws of the people are empty. For the work of the hand of the craftsman has cut a tree from the forest with an axe. 4 He has adorned it with silver and gold. He has put it together with nail and hammer, so that it will not fall apart.
That last one was from the Catholic bible. God really doesn't seem to like His people following the customs of the "Gentiles" and doesn't appear to like the idea of cutting down trees and decorating them.
Obviously Christmas was just a Pagan sun-worshipping holiday that eventually was adopted by the Catholic Church. They admit it in their own encyclopedias... but I already know not to keep posting that rubbish. If the Catholic church printed something that disagrees with you, it's automatically garbage and magically my own opinion. Just mine.
None of your verses support Christmas. Not even close. I have researched the Christmas tradition. It has its origins 2000 years before Jesus. We could easily start a new thread about it. But this subject must have been brought up before. Pagan traditions are forbidden by the Bible. So since you admit Christmas is Pagan, it must be thrown out. Crib? That is a new one about Christmas.
How did you know I had a big nose?
Healing a non-Christian is NOT evidence that Pagan customs should be adopted and become doctrine. Still not even close. The Centurion believed that Jesus could heal his daughter. Jesus healed his daughter. And just like that, Pagan customs were now doctrine? In my opinion, you have taken that one way too far. So if my Pagan neighbor needs my help, and I help him, does that mean I am now adopting his religion? Or does it simply mean I am helping my neighbor.
3. "My word isn't proof of anything" You're telling me! But yes, there is no evidence of a Friday crucifixion. None. Scriptural or historical.
4. Glad you have a sense of humor. I actually recently spoke with another Catholic who just finished up his theology degree. He agreed with those quotes as well. Maybe it's an American thing? North and South? I'm not saying he completely agreed, but he said that Catholic doctrine is built on those verses we spoke about earlier with Jesus and Peter.
" I supply Scriptural evidence in support of my arguments, what do you offer?"
I offered Catholic, historical, AND scriptural support of my arguments. However, unlike you, I haven't just dismissed your arguments by just saying you're wrong. My scriptures have been on point. You did give a lot of opinion. Today opinion = fact, so you got that going for you. I have more than backed up my original argument.... an argument made by your own church's writings. What do you offer? Aside from saying "wrong".
moralorel
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I'm not hunting. If I seem rough, just know that I'm not trying to bully anyone or duel with them. I WANT to be incorrect in order to learn. Many of my opinions and beliefs today came from finding out I was wrong. I'm not some angry guy trying to convert people or make them agree with me. You know what you get if you agree with me? You *might* get a "like" on your post. But I do the same with well-written arguments that I disagree with as well. And what do I get if someone agrees with me? Nothing really. Maybe this forum could start handing out gold stars?
One thing I used to do in college was form an argument I disagreed with and argue with someone.... even though I agreed with them. I don't do this as often anymore, but it is a good way to learn about our own opinions. I do it on forums as well.
I'm not trying to tear anyone down. That's not me.
moralorel
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Repeating "you're wrong" or "they're wrong" is a lazy opinion to me. Repeating it doesn't make it less lazy.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
I get the sense you have both guns blazing, and haven't really let up for a few days. Exuberance? I don't know.
I don't disagree with what you're saying, I just think you are coming on a lot harder than you really need to.
Thomas hears this stuff all the time. I admire the courage he has defending his faith, and I pray for the same courage to defend mine. I respect Thomas.
Sometimes being right isn't worth the cost.
Romans 14:1-3
1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Thinking required
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Are you calling all this truth? Where did you get this truth???? Just kidding, back at you.
moralorel
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Hope your day gets better.I've done this a time or two as well.
It's been a long day.
moralorel
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That's definitely one thing I love about Thomas. He definitely has spirit. I definitely have a lot of respect for him. But I'm not defending my faith. This isn't personal either. I don't know if I'm right. I saw an argument. Provided some factual quotes hoping for a good explanation for why these people would say what they did. I'm still waiting.
And without the Catholic Church there would be no Christianity, no New Testament. It is the Catholic church with all its faults that has been the steward of the life of Christ all down the ages, until Luther and the printing press.
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18
We know that
https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/18778/
https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/19892/#post-352250
My son is always doing that to me .. playing devil's advocate.I've done this a time or two as well.
It's been a long day.
It can be frustrating at times.