Inspiration

[Thinking required]

I was wondering about your thoughts here.

Why not dictated as in the case with Muhammad. Why the word ""inspired" by God" or "God-breathed". this is the only time in the New Testament that this Greek word is used and Timothy was one of Paul's latter letters. Titus being his last. Paul even separates his words from the inspired words at one point.

Timothy3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), 2 Ti 3:16.

inspired by God Paul uses the Greek term theopneustos here (meaning “God-breathed”) to assure Timothy that Scripture is, in fact, from God. Although God used people to produce the Scriptures (2 Pet 1:20–21), their ultimate origin is God. By contrast, the false teaching that Timothy opposed comes from evil forces who spread their doctrine through errant teachers (1 Tim 1:3–7; 4:1).

John D. Barry et al., Faithlife Study Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012, 2016), 2 Ti 3:16.

 

[Cino]

I don't have an answer, but some thoughts:

Wasn't Muhammad illiterate? I thought that the tradition goes that he was commanded to read in his first vision, with him replying that he was unable to read? He later dictated the Quran, but he himself didn't take dictation?

Anyway, Breath and Wind are very old and traditional imagery for spirit. In the Bible, it appears within the first few verses of Genesis.

In semitic languages, words have "roots" of consonants, and the root which produces both "soul" (one meaning if the word) and "wind" and "breath" works in both Hebrew and Arabic.

Speech is a form of breath.

Being a big fan of meditation on the breath, I can attest to its power to inspire mystical states of mind and perception.

Just a few thoughts that bubbled up.

 

[Thinking required]

Wasn't Muhammad illiterate? I thought that the tradition goes that he was commanded to read in his first vision, with him replying that he was unable to read? He later dictated the Quran, but he himself didn't take dictation?

That's the story but it doesn't make sense. He married a wealthy lady who had a business. Muhammad took over the business in trading. When people are exposed to documents, they have to de able to understand. May Muhammad was illiterate when they first married. I just can't see that woman letting here husband stay illiterate. That just my point of view.

 

[Thinking required]

He later dictated the Quran, but he himself didn't take dictation?

I would not call it dictated. The word Quran means recitation as far as I have been told. There were supposedly some, few, many people who all knew the Suras of the Quran by memory, even though there was disagreement at times from what I have read from Muslim sources. I have been told that this was supposed to be a better and more reliable form of transmission instead of writing, but we all know that is just non-sense. You are correct, he never wrote anything down that we know of. The Quran in written form did not take place until after the death of Muhammad, again what I understand.

 

[Cino]

Oral transmisdion is very reliable in cultures where it is embedded. The Vedas and the Avesta were orally transmitted for a long time, as were the Buddhist sutras. The Aboriginal people of Australia have oral transmission of history going back to the time when the continental shelf between Papua-New Guinea was dry land, so at least the ladt ice age, over 20000 (20 thousand) years ago.

 

[wil]

Oral transmisdion is very reliable in cultures

I know an Indian family which repeated a tradition every night with their kids...every night was a bedtime story. The story was completed over the course of a year. When gramma was in town she would sit with her daughter and correct....it was amazing... imagine hearing a story every night, every year till you left home...and then when your kids were born starting it all over...

 

[RJM]

Oral transmisdion is very reliable in cultures where it is embedded.

I totally agree. That is why the bards and poets in old societies were 'protected' as they travelled around telling people the history and legends of their land and ancestors in a form of poetry and song that made them easier to remember. It was the same with African Sangomas or shamans. It was a sacred duty and those entrusted with memorizing the songs and stories were highly trained, including penalties. To an extent the tradition continued with folk singers like Woody Guthrie?

 

[Thinking required]

The Aboriginal people of Australia have oral transmission of history going back to the time when the continental shelf between Papua-New Guinea was dry land,

And just how do you know it's exactly the same as the first oral transmission? You don't because it is not written down along the journey. Just another assumption. I am not saying that it could not be, but are you starting to see my point yet? Could there be truth within the "oral transmission", yes, but exact?

 

[Cino]

And just how do you know it's exactly the same as the first oral transmission? You don't because it is not written down along the journey. Just another assumption

In the case of the Vedas and the Avesta, there is a body of research supporting the idea that the texts were transmitted very precisely.

For example, in the Vedas, several different ancient dialects of Vedic Sanskrit are preserved.

The same goes for the Buddhist sutras of the Pali canon. They represent a younger tradition.

The Australian example I mentioned has been studied as well, but I'm not familiar with the literature.

 

[Thinking required]

In the case of the Vedas and the Avesta, there is a body of research supporting the idea that the texts were transmitted very precisely.

I plead ignorance here. Sorry I never found it necessary to research Asian Religions. Not to say there is no benefit in what they may teach.

 

[EricPH]

And just how do you know it's exactly the same as the first oral transmission? You don't because it is not written down along the journey. Just another assumption

You seem to be searching for answers, that assume mankind is in control. If God has the knowledge and power to create the universe and life, that is awesome. God would also have the power to have scriptures written in the way that he intends. If some all powerful emperor wanted to corrupt scriptures, they would have to fight against God, so no contest.

When I read the Bible today, I know and trust it is the Bible that God intends me to read. If ten people read ten other translations of the Bible, in whatever language they chose, that will be the Bible God intends them to read. There will be sufficient information for each of us, to go through life and seek salvation.

I believe the same is true for other religions. I think God was generous in the way he gave us scriptures, he knew ‘one way’ would not be sufficient for us. Christians know there is only ‘one Jesus Christ’, but we have managed to separate ourselves into thousands of denominations. This does not make sense to me.

 

[Thinking required]

You seem to be searching for answers, that assume mankind is in control. If God has the knowledge and power to create the universe and life, that is awesome. God would also have the power to have scriptures written in the way that he intends. If some all powerful emperor wanted to corrupt scriptures, they would have to fight against God, so no contest.

Not any more. I have most of the answers that I sought after. When it comes to God and the Bible, I have no doubts.

 

[Thinking required]

I believe the same is true for other religions. I think God was generous in the way he gave us scriptures, he knew ‘one way’ would not be sufficient for us. Christians know there is only ‘one Jesus Christ’, but we have managed to separate ourselves into thousands of denominations. This does not make sense to me.

I am loosing your here. There is only one way to God as far as the Bible says. If you think that God is some old grandfather who loves everyone and will give them some other way into Heaven, this does not align with the Scriptures.
I believe the "thousands" of denominations was excessive. Hundreds would be more realistic if you are talking just about christian denominations.
I am well aware that God is in complete control.

 

[wil]

I plead ignorance here. Sorry I never found it necessary to research Asian Religions. Not to say there is no benefit in what they may teach.

From what you have written, I think you'll find much in your line of thinking.

 

[wil]

There is only one way to God as far as the Bible says. If you think that God is some old grandfather who loves everyone and will give them some other way into Heaven, this does not align with the Scriptures.

This is the belief and spirituality forum. Not the abrahamic or Christian corral. The Bible does not hold water here as it does over there. We are not required to align with your scripture or your beliefs...but you know that.

Gotta stretch your interfaith wings brother if you wish to wander out around the world.

 

[Thinking required]

From what you have written, I think you'll find much in your line of thinking.

Probably would, I did consider myself a Hippie back in the day. Looking to the stars, smoking pot and free love.

 

[Thinking required]

Gotta stretch your interfaith wings brother if you wish to wander out around the world.

Just don't see a long term relationship here. Sorry that I don't get each forum properly.

 

[wil]

Just don't see a long term relationship here. Sorry that I don't get each forum properly.

Yeah, you said a.couple weeks ago that we must have pretty mundane lives to be around here discussing this for years...and then you dove in like a thirsty zealot from pool to pool.

I been around 18 years and have the record at posting like 3 or 4 times a day...you are near 10x that....pretty likely you don't hate it here...but some adjustments may be in order so you don't burn out.

 

[Thinking required]

Yeah, you said a.couple weeks ago that we must have pretty mundane lives to be around here discussing this for years...and then you dove in like a thirsty zealot from pool to pool.

I been around 18 years and have the record at posting like 3 or 4 times a day...you are near 10x that....pretty likely you don't hate it here...but some adjustments may be in order so you don't burn out.

Thanks for the humor, I do love a good laugh. I can talk about the Bible and God all day long. I've tried to explain my situation. I am sitting here trying to get through this heavily repetitive Quran, on Sura 29 and every now and then need a break from all the stories of Egypt, Moses, Arron, Noah and Lot. I look up to see if there is mail and will respond. I will probably take a bike ride later and maybe trim a tree that is too close to my roof. I have too many outside areas that require my attention. I originally started here @ 2 weeks ago because my wife had surgery and I had to stay around her more. Talking about God will never burn me out. This site is more of a research project, once again trying to understand people and what makes humanity love to believe lies. I enjoy our dialogues.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I am sitting here trying to get through this heavily repetitive Quran, on Sura 29 and every now and then need a break from all the stories of Egypt, Moses, Arron, Noah and Lot..

I'm intrigued .. why are you reading the Qur'an, if you think it's all lies?
The first time I read it, I couldn't get my head around the graphical descriptions of hell,
which were waiting for disbelievers.
I was raised as a Protestant [C of E], and we talked about heaven, and not hell.
..so I stopped reading it .. but I wasn't to be left alone ..
..I can continue my story, if anybody is curious.