Our thoughts and prayers...

[wil]

Where best does this post fit?

I do not know.

This phrase oft used by newscasters and politicians particularly after school shootings. After any disaster, but for me particularly irritating after mass shootings and achool shootings in the US...because our pundits and pols could easily follow the positive results seen around the civilized world by changing our gun laws.

But this is not a political post. It is about thinking prayer will solve a problem we can solve ourselves.

No it's not. It is about MY thoughts whenever I hear "our thoughts and prayers go out to the parents, family and classmates of the children"

Aaaarrgghhhh that irritates this old hunter and gun owner....change the freaking LAW!

But this post is really about us non believers, atheists and agnostics....and prayer. Equally offensive to us is.... "I'll pray for you."

Now hear me out, I am, we are fully aware your intent is to at a minimum soothe and comfort by asking G!d to benefit us in some way, to heal, to reduce pain or strife, or to make the end come quickly or the operation go well. Whatever it my be your inclination to pray for me is well meaning, from a place of compassion, utilizing a tool that you and yours know and have faith in.

But for me, it is not. And in the past few weeks I have inquired of dozens of atheists, agnostics and non abrahamics about this phrase. And their gut reaction.

"I WILL PRAY FOR YOU"

I hope this in an educational moment. I say specifically 'gut' reaction because that is the most common response I got from when I asked. "If you are sick, in pain, or emotionally down, how do you feel when someone says, 'I will pray for you'?"

Again, I asked non believers...like me. And all responses were in a similar vein.

Makes me:
Irritated
Sick to my stomach
Want to vomit
Mad
Confused
Wish they would shut up
Wish they would go away
Not now
This again?

The thing is we know that is not your goal, we know you wish to benefit us with the thought.

But the non believer has a hard time believing YOU believe in G!d. The non believer has a hard time believing you believe the all-powerful omniscient thing you believe in that they don't could make any beneficial.changes at all and now you have just made my brain hurt inthis contemplation and pissed me off! Aasrgghh.

Again, this is me, and the results of my nonscientific survey of some of the non-believers I know...and oh the rants I had to listen to and the utter anger I incited by asking the question...it triggered many negative memories....and the exercise on my part triggered memories that were not beneficial today...years and decades after the "I'll pray for you" incident!

Let us make this an educational moment.

If your goal is to actually benefit the body, mind and soul of your friend instead of IPFY....

Do you mind if I pray for you?
Would you like me to pray for you?

Much better but both these while.not increasing stomach acid will start my mental gymnastics.

Is there anything I can get for you?
Is there anything I can say that will help right now?
Will a hug help?
Can I get you water or anything?

We who don't believe in your unseen G!d do believe in this physical world.

These are my thoughts originally started in another conversation here, which started me on my poll of others. And this post is to followup so we may discuss your thoughts on the topic and increase understanding for all.

 

[juantoo3]

Our thoughts and prayers...​

Sorry, I can't edit my copy of the title text. That's the best I could do to keep from screaming. Again, my apologies. My intent was only to bring Wil's Title into the conversation.

This phrase oft used by newscasters and politicians particularly after school shootings. After any disaster, but for me particularly irritating after mass shootings and achool shootings in the US...because our pundits and pols could easily follow the positive results seen around the civilized world by changing our gun laws.

But this is not a political post. It is about thinking prayer will solve a problem we can solve ourselves.

No it's not. It is about MY thoughts whenever I hear "our thoughts and prayers go out to the parents, family and classmates of the children"

Aaaarrgghhhh that irritates this old hunter and gun owner....change the freaking LAW!

But this post is really about us non believers, atheists and agnostics....and prayer. Equally offensive to us is.... "I'll pray for you."

That's because of the condescending tone in which it is said, by some. Still your fellow travelers.

The Desiderata begins:

"Go placidly amidst the noise and haste...

Speak your truth, quietly and clearly..."

I know I didn't fully quote Desiderata, but my omission has no intent behind it, there is much wisdom in that beautiful poem. I could as easily cut / paste the full poem here...but that would take space and may receive incorrect interpretation of intent if I were to do so...and it doesn't really fit the context of what's up.

The thing is we know that is not your goal, we know you wish to benefit us with the thought.

Perhaps. There certainly are people in the world that would use that to brush off or dismiss others...for a variety of reasons.

It still comes down to attitude and doing unto others.

We've had words, I've had words with others here. I never, ever, talked down to anyone I appreciate. I can respect you, even cherish you, and disagree with everything you stand for.

Yet you cannot do that for me? How long have we known each other? How many battles as brothers have you and I fought, right here, over the years?

Do you think for a moment that I don't love you as a brother?

But the non believer has a hard time believing YOU believe in G!d. The non believer has a hard time believing you believe the all-powerful omniscient thing you believe in that they don't could make any beneficial.changes at all and now you have just made my brain hurt inthis contemplation and pissed me off! Aasrgghh.

OK, so clearly something's bugging you.

Best I know to tell you is the Golden Rule. Do unto others...you know? Of course, in my book, what is done unto me is fair game. I don't believe the common teaching of "turn the other cheek." A Christian was never meant to be a doormat.

Given the lack of harm of the glib dismissal (and believe me, Christians are NOT the only ones that glibly dismiss...it is an old practice, a la Miss Manners.

Sure beats the hell out of torching Mom and Pop businesses and destroying communities...burning in the background as the News Reporter calls it "mostly peaceful."

How about actually try peace for a change?

Guess what dude? I'm gonna say a prayer for you. Get over it.

Father, watch over my brother.

 

[moralorel]

Where best does this post fit?

I do not know.

This phrase oft used by newscasters and politicians particularly after school shootings. After any disaster, but for me particularly irritating after mass shootings and achool shootings in the US...because our pundits and pols could easily follow the positive results seen around the civilized world by changing our gun laws.

But this is not a political post. It is about thinking prayer will solve a problem we can solve ourselves.

No it's not. It is about MY thoughts whenever I hear "our thoughts and prayers go out to the parents, family and classmates of the children"

Aaaarrgghhhh that irritates this old hunter and gun owner....change the freaking LAW!

But this post is really about us non believers, atheists and agnostics....and prayer. Equally offensive to us is.... "I'll pray for you."

Now hear me out, I am, we are fully aware your intent is to at a minimum soothe and comfort by asking G!d to benefit us in some way, to heal, to reduce pain or strife, or to make the end come quickly or the operation go well. Whatever it my be your inclination to pray for me is well meaning, from a place of compassion, utilizing a tool that you and yours know and have faith in.

But for me, it is not. And in the past few weeks I have inquired of dozens of atheists, agnostics and non abrahamics about this phrase. And their gut reaction.

"I WILL PRAY FOR YOU"

I hope this in an educational moment. I say specifically 'gut' reaction because that is the most common response I got from when I asked. "If you are sick, in pain, or emotionally down, how do you feel when someone says, 'I will pray for you'?"

Again, I asked non believers...like me. And all responses were in a similar vein.

Makes me:
Irritated
Sick to my stomach
Want to vomit
Mad
Confused
Wish they would shut up
Wish they would go away
Not now
This again?

The thing is we know that is not your goal, we know you wish to benefit us with the thought.

But the non believer has a hard time believing YOU believe in G!d. The non believer has a hard time believing you believe the all-powerful omniscient thing you believe in that they don't could make any beneficial.changes at all and now you have just made my brain hurt inthis contemplation and pissed me off! Aasrgghh.

Again, this is me, and the results of my nonscientific survey of some of the non-believers I know...and oh the rants I had to listen to and the utter anger I incited by asking the question...it triggered many negative memories....and the exercise on my part triggered memories that were not beneficial today...years and decades after the "I'll pray for you" incident!

Let us make this an educational moment.

If your goal is to actually benefit the body, mind and soul of your friend instead of IPFY....

Do you mind if I pray for you?
Would you like me to pray for you?

Much better but both these while.not increasing stomach acid will start my mental gymnastics.

Is there anything I can get for you?
Is there anything I can say that will help right now?
Will a hug help?
Can I get you water or anything?

We who don't believe in your unseen G!d do believe in this physical world.

These are my thoughts originally started in another conversation here, which started me on my poll of others. And this post is to followup so we may discuss your thoughts on the topic and increase understanding for all.

I think if a person looks at that swamp in D.C. for a way to fix a major moral problem in our country, they really might want to learn more about their government. Might as well take direction from a serpent in a tree.

I do agree with you that simply saying "our prayers and thoughts..." really isn't helping anything.

If we are to change anything about the violent society we are living in, we have to start with ourselves.

I actually met some of the survivors of the Columbine shooting. We had a long talk about the horrors of that incident and what could have prevented it. Not one mentioned gun control or laws. Not one. The town created its own monsters and suffered at the hands of these monsters.

 

[juantoo3]

I think if a person looks at that swamp in D.C. for a way to fix a major moral problem in our country, they really might want to learn more about their government. Might as well take direction from a serpent in a tree.

I do agree with you that simply saying "our prayers and thoughts..." really isn't helping anything.

If we are to change anything about the violent society we are living in, we have to start with ourselves.

I actually met some of the survivors of the Columbine shooting. We had a long talk about the horrors of that incident and what could have prevented it. Not one mentioned gun control or laws. Not one. The town created its own monsters and suffered at the hands of these monsters.

The problem with weapons is the line between lawful and unlawful ownership, intent and use.

The second amendment was specifically for self-defense - particularly against tyrannical government. So naturally a tyrannically inclined government will do what it can to supersede or eliminate any legal right that resembles the second amendment.

"Gun crime" is committed by criminals, the vast majority of which are not law abiding, and not legally in possession, and used in unlawful ways. Remove legal gun ownership and that will not change; only crooks and outlaws will continue to possess and use firearms.

It is a sad state of affairs that a tyrannical government would stoop so low as to politicize citizens' pain, particularly when their ulterior motive is plain to see. That is despicable.

Historically, guess who else wanted to confiscate and eliminate private ownership of firearms so there would be no challenge to tyrannical government?

 

[talib-al-kalim]

The problem with weapons is the line between lawful and unlawful ownership, intent and use.

The second amendment was specifically for self-defense - particularly against tyrannical government. So naturally a tyrannically inclined government will do what it can to supersede or eliminate any legal right that resembles the second amendment.

"Gun crime" is committed by criminals, the vast majority of which are not law abiding, and not legally in possession, and used in unlawful ways. Remove legal gun ownership and that will not change; only crooks and outlaws will continue to possess and use firearms.

It is a sad state of affairs that a tyrannical government would stoop so low as to politicize citizens' pain, particularly when their ulterior motive is plain to see. That is despicable.

Historically, guess who else wanted to confiscate and eliminate private ownership of firearms so there would be no challenge to tyrannical government?

What are private fire arms used for in the U.S., read this. There's much less crime in Switzerland, and there are less households that have loaded firearms at home. What comes out here is:
Total 2020: 196 persons killed by a gun.
Thereof
176 Suicide
15 Murder within the family (including ex partners)
3 Crime
2 Former friends
0 Self-defence

 

[juantoo3]

What are private fire arms used for in the U.S., read this. There's much less crime in Switzerland, and there are less households that have loaded firearms at home. What comes out here is:
Total 2020: 196 persons killed by a gun.
Thereof
176 Suicide
15 Murder within the family (including ex partners)
3 Crime
2 Former friends
0 Self-defence

Last I heard Switzerland issues an AR style assault weapon to either every adult citizen or every adult male citizen, I forget, point being EVERY home has one.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

Last I heard Switzerland issues an AR style assault weapon to either every adult citizen or every adult male citizen, I forget, point being EVERY home has one.

Since world war II, people used to have their own army weapon at home but without munitions. It's been changed some years ago

 

[wil]

It's a myth 2a activists love to perpetuate.

 

[juantoo3]

It's a myth 2a activists love to perpetuate.

That's a myth anti-constitutionalists love to promote.

 

[wil]

That's a myth anti-constitutionalists love to promote.

Pro constitution...anti the interpretation of that amendment....so far the only well regulated militias we have seen since it was created were white supremists, black Panthers eh?

 

[moralorel]

Pro constitution...anti the interpretation of that amendment....so far the only well regulated militias we have seen since it was created were white supremists, black Panthers eh?

We were able to hamper the Black Panthers by passing the Mulford Act. It wasn't racist. It was just California's first major gun control that happened to be a way to disarm the Black Panthers. Nope, not racist. Not at all. As Biden would say, it's just common sense gun control man. God save the Queen.

 

[juantoo3]

Pro constitution...anti the interpretation of that amendment....so far the only well regulated militias we have seen since it was created were white supremists, black Panthers eh?

I don't think so. But then it isn't at all unusual for a libby to talk "knowledgeably" about something they have no clue about.

Can I loan you my pocket copy of the Constitution?

A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

What part of "shall not be infringed" is so difficult to understand?

It isn't law abiding people committing gun crimes. It isn't guns committing gun crimes.

It is criminals committing gun crimes. Period. The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is by a good guy with a gun.

And as for well regulated militias...apparently you've never heard of the National Guard. But again, libbies commonly talk as if they know something when they haven't got a clue. Typically what comes out is knee jerk emotive with no common sense reasoning. Such people probably shouldn't have guns - for a wide range of reasons, primarily being too quick to use them if they have them without considering the consequences.

 

[juantoo3]

We were able to hamper the Black Panthers by passing the Mulford Act. It wasn't racist. It was just California's first major gun control that happened to be a way to disarm the Black Panthers. Nope, not racist. Not at all. As Biden would say, it's just common sense gun control man. God save the Queen.

California has always been a libby wonderland.

Once upon a time that wasn't such a bad thing, but that was a couple of generations ago. The days of John F Kennedy and civil rights and freedom of speech are long past now. Gone are the Democrats of 50 years ago, the party has since jumped off a left leaning cliff.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

I don't think so. But then it isn't at all unusual for a libby to talk "knowledgeably" about something they have no clue about.

Can I loan you my pocket copy of the Constitution?



What part of "shall not be infringed" is so difficult to understand?

It isn't law abiding people committing gun crimes. It isn't guns committing gun crimes.

It is criminals committing gun crimes. Period. The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is by a good guy with a gun.

And as for well regulated militias...apparently you've never heard of the National Guard. But again, libbies commonly talk as if they know something when they haven't got a clue. Typically what comes out is knee jerk emotive with no common sense reasoning. Such people probably shouldn't have guns - for a wide range of reasons, primarily being too quick to use them if they have them without considering the consequences.

There were 100 good guys and 100 bad guys.
In the night, all 100 bad guys were asleep.
Then, a shot was heard.
The next day, there were 99 good guys and 100 bad guys.
What happened?

 

[juantoo3]

What happened?

What happened is a hypothetical or a joke that went over my head, so I'm waiting on the punchline.

It doesn't negate what I wrote.

While I can accept some linguistic confusion between English and Swiss German, I think "shall not be infringed" should be a straightforward translation, and while various European cultures may have differing and objecting sensibilities it is hardly any of their places to cast judgment.

Who saved Europe's butts in WWII? Without American intervention, Europe would all be singing the praises of Holy Roman Emperor Adolph the First with nary a Jew or homosexual in sight.

You're welcome.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

What happened is a hypothetical or a joke that went over my head, so I'm waiting on the punchline.

It doesn't negate what I wrote.

While I can accept some linguistic confusion between English and Swiss German, I think "shall not be infringed" should be a straightforward translation, and while various European cultures may have differing and objecting sensibilities it is hardly any of their places to cast judgment.

Who saved Europe's butts in WWII? Without American intervention, Europe would all be singing the praises of Holy Roman Emperor Adolph the First with nary a Jew or homosexual in sight.

You're welcome.

I am not against the U.S. but it is true that I find it sometimes difficult to understand positions of the politics, be it so many people still supporting Trump or the "woke" people who want to forbid white people to perform Reggae.

My post is a riddle.

 

[juantoo3]

I find it sometimes difficult to understand positions of the politics

I live here, and I find it difficult to understand the positions of the politics as well!

 

[Faithfulservant]

Even if there were stricter gun control laws.. the bad guys would still get guns and the good guys would be defenseless.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

What happened is a hypothetical or a joke that went over my head, so I'm waiting on the punchline.

It doesn't negate what I wrote.

The solution is:
A good guy shot a bad guy while he was sleeping. Through this deed, he is a murderer, thus he is to be counted among the bad guys.

What I want to point out is that if you have a gun, there may come the temptation to use it.
It's an old trick of Shaitan to make people think they are fighting for good and make them evil.

 

[Faithfulservant]

The solution is:
A good guy shot a bad guy while he was sleeping. Through this deed, he is a murderer, thus he is to be counted among the bad guys.

What I want to point out is that if you have a gun, there may come the temptation to use it.
It's an old trick of Shaitan to make people think they are fighting for good and make them evil

I'm sorry but that made absolutely no sense.