The Mystery of God’s Will Unfolding in this Matrix 2

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

So your Abdul'baha doesn't even acknowledge the entirety of Christian scripture and only just took what he wanted from it and disregarded the rest. How can we as Christians take anything he said seriously

To know that, one would have to know all of what Abdul'baha offered.

I see no point in sharing anything else.

Regards Tony

 

[TheLightWithin]

I personally do not agree. This is something that my life has shown to me. Every choice, every thought, every action has consequences.

I contemplate the rise of youth crime, the anarchy of many children today to any structured laws. This is a result of unbridled liberty.

Everything we choose to partake of has consequences, we choose to watch violence and shows full of vengeance and unlawful activity, expose children to this and and it becomes part of their nature and nurture. All of a sudden it is cool to steal cars, to take what one does not earn etc etc.

This was in reply to Modesty's statement that other faiths do not damage humanity. I think what she said is true.
I'm not sure I understand your reply. On the face of it it's a valid enough observation of various destructive human behaviors.
However I'm not sure I understand how it applies to someone's statement that other faiths do not damage humanity.
There's an underlying unstated argument or assumption that I'm not grasping.

 

[TheLightWithin]

God's inerrant truth for the next 800 years -- starting now, sign up and pay the temple tax, or else you're damning yourself and rest of the world to hell

I'm confused. Is that the actual doctrine of Baha'i? I don't actually know the Bahai doctrine of the afterlife.
I had thought -- perhaps I'm mistaken -- but I had thought that only Christianity (most denominations) and Islam (I don't know how many denominations) had the believe-us-or-else doctrine of "eternal hell for unbelievers" variety.
I think I'd like to start a separate thread under Bahai' to ask about Bahai afterlife teachings. Thanks for reminding me...

 

[TheLightWithin]

My observations is, that what you have offered is the Challenge every Messenger of God brings to us, do we need the fruits of the Spirit, or do we not need them. (This is what creates the balance of health in the body of humanity)

Based on what others have said, I want to ask whether non Abrahamic messengers are considered valid in the Bahai tradition. Such as Buddha, who would be the most prominent example, but what about Guru Nanak? Also, what about the other prophets within the Abrahamic family such as Joseph Smith or Charles Taze Russel or William Miller or Ellen White?

I think I should put this question in its own thread under Bahai.
Tony, I hope you will look for it and that the other Bahai we have here will join in too.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Believers in the One G-d of Abraham have nothing to fear, if they tread a path of righteousness.

What is your theory for those who do not believe in the God of Abraham? (Buddhists, for example, Sikhs, Hindus, Taoists, etc)

 

[TheLightWithin]

But this human spirit has two aspects: one divine and one satanic—that is, it is capable of both the greatest perfection and the greatest deficiency.
This is not Abrahamic. (Zoroastrian, perhaps?) In the Abrahamic Traditions, human nature is created inherently good (but subsequently wounded), but most definitely not inherently satanic.

In the Bible, we are made in the image of the Divine (Genesis 1:26) and animated by the breath of the Holy Spirit (Genesis 2:7) – the satanic order belongs to the level of angels, and are themselves created (and subsequently fallen).

So this definitely conflicts with the Biblical reference.

I know I read this earlier this evening from one of @tony's posts but I have tried unsuccessfully to find the original post.
I wanted to ask @tony or anyone who knows, is that the actual doctrine of Bahai? A dual-nature, divine and "satanic", in human nature?
I agree it is not consistent with Judaism and I don't think it is formally consistent with most branches of Christianity,
However, in practice, a lot of evangelical hardliners seem to think that the inherent "satanic" nature IS reality, with or without the idea of a "dual nature" the "inherent satanic nature" that's their interpretation of "original sin" (a doctrine not found in Judaism AFAIK, not sure about Islam) Some hardliners also interpret the idea of "satan is the prince of this world" to mean that the world itself is under satan's domain. Source of information? Lots of conversations over the years as well as reading informal accounts of people's upbringings in strict religious homes.

I'm curious to know how much or how little Baha'i is influenced by these types of ideas from some denominations of Christianity.
A little, a lot, or not at all?
Maybe @tony or @Ahanu can answer.
Or I can add the question to the thread I started in the Bahai section as the conversation gets going.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

This was in reply to Modesty's statement that other faiths do not damage humanity. I think what she said is true.
I'm not sure I understand your reply. On the face of it it's a valid enough observation of various destructive human behaviors.
However I'm not sure I understand how it applies to someone's statement that other faiths do not damage humanity.
There's an underlying unstated argument or assumption that I'm not grasping.

If faith has also produced errors in understanding, these errors will and do have consequences. Example. It could be that the formulation of the Doctrine of the Trinity, had dramatic repercussions that have resulted in the persecution of many people that did have a strong and just as valid faith. The doctrine became a cause of conflict and has also most likely prevented people embracing other Messengers from God. I see this is the warning found in the Quran.

Another example at the level of a tribal religious practice is that of a show I watched yesterday on the Prion Kuru sickness that effected one tribal group in Papua New Guinea. A spiritual tradition had mainly the Women and children earing the flesh of their dead relatives. It turns out that Mad Cow Disease, and also it appeared in Sheep, that were being fed meal that was ground from their same kind are closely related. These sicknesses can unfold over generations.

So those 2 examples, one subtle, one forthright, indicate that our thoughts and action's do have repercussions extending through time.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I know I read this earlier this evening from one of @tony's posts but I have tried unsuccessfully to find the original post.
I wanted to ask @tony or anyone who knows, is that the actual doctrine of Bahai? A dual-nature, divine and "satanic", in human nature?
I agree it is not consistent with Judaism and I don't think it is formally consistent with most branches of Christianity,
However, in practice, a lot of evangelical hardliners seem to think that the inherent "satanic" nature IS reality, with or without the idea of a "dual nature" the "inherent satanic nature" that's their interpretation of "original sin" (a doctrine not found in Judaism AFAIK, not sure about Islam) Some hardliners also interpret the idea of "satan is the prince of this world" to mean that the world itself is under satan's domain. Source of information? Lots of conversations over the years as well as reading informal accounts of people's upbringings in strict religious homes.

I'm curious to know how much or how little Baha'i is influenced by these types of ideas from some denominations of Christianity.
A little, a lot, or not at all?
Maybe @tony or @Ahanu can answer.
Or I can add the question to the thread I started in the Bahai section as the conversation gets going.

Abdul'baha has a good talk on the the non-existence of Evil. This is all relative. A lion is not evil in its own reality, it kills to eat, it is the natural order. If man kills, is is evil, it is against the Law of God.

A human, if brought up as an animal, is an animal, we have the science of children that were brought up with animals. So this is not evil in itself, evil is having been taught what is of God, and then neglecting that way of life.

If we observe this world, we live in a world of opposites. We have the animating forces and the absence of those forces.

Examples.
Light and lack of light is darkness. Darkness only exists because of the lack of light.
Love and the lack of love is hate. Hate only exists because of the lack of Love.

As a human, we battle our own self. The Animal that is drawn to nature and the divine that is drawn to Love, to morals and virtues.

We are to find the balance, where the animal is perfected in Love, morals and virtues, we have to find submission.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Based on what others have said, I want to ask whether non Abrahamic messengers are considered valid in the Bahai tradition. Such as Buddha, who would be the most prominent example, but what about Guru Nanak? Also, what about the other prophets within the Abrahamic family such as Joseph Smith or Charles Taze Russel or William Miller or Ellen White?

I think I should put this question in its own thread under Bahai.
Tony, I hope you will look for it and that the other Bahai we have here will join in too.

Yes indeed some will be. Not all though as the same issues are faced in the East and the West, the North and the South, there will always be those that are false.

Krishna, Zoroaster and Buddha are confirmed in the Baha'i Wrirings. We are told that the future historians will explore others who may have been Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[Faithfulservant]

To know that, one would have to know all of what Abdul'baha offered.

I see no point in sharing anything else.

Regards Tony

Ok. May I suggest you do more research on what biblical scripture says before trying to tell Christians what it does or does not say?

I would also say one would have to know all of what Jesus Christ offers before replacing Him with a mere mortal man. (present tense because He is not in the grave).

 

[Faithfulservant]

I see the main issue. Firstly that would offer that no Hindu, Zoroastrian, Buddhist, Muslim or Baha'i can be born into the Holy Spirit.

I accept all those Biblical passages by the way, I have a different way of interpretation, I have a differently frame of reference. I know I am no an Annointed One, that is the Station of Jesus.

Now I can offer a couple of passages, that you quoted and offer the Different Frame of reference, ine can consider if they are applicable to one's own self.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

Yes, we are made in that image, but we must be born again from the flesh (human condition, into the Homy Spirit)

1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

Yes, when we accept and follow Christ.

Corinthians 6:16
Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,“I will dwell in them and walk among them; And I will be their God, and they shall be My people

That is the Station of Jesus as the Christ, our potential, submission in Christ starts the journey.

2 Timothy 1:14
Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.

The Gift of Faith in Christ.


[Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Romans 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him

Galatians 4:6
Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!]

I see these 3 passages are inclusive of Messengers to come and Roman 8:9 gives us a fair warning, that they too are the Spirit of Christ

John 2:27
As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

This passage is critical to me, it offers we need to be Annointed by Christ in and by Faith. We need Christ to Educate us. We are not Annointed by God, we are not the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End the Alpha and Omega.

Regards Tony

I think you are confused. Paul was speaking to the Church.. the Bride of Christ.. the Body of Christ.. not to some future "messengers" the NT was not written for some future messengers. The warnings of wolves in sheeps clothing ring very clear to me. You speak like a Christian..saying all the right things all the familiar things. It's very deceptive and maybe for someone not versed in the bible and with spiritual discernment could be convinced. Pretty darn smart of you Tony.. do other Baha'i talk like you?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

You speak like a Christian..saying all the right things all the familiar things.

That is the Oneness of God ringing true Faithfulservant.

Regards Tony

 

[TheLightWithin]

What does the Bible say in regards to Marriage and relationships outsideof Marriage?

This seems to come out of left field. It doesn't seem connected to the rest of the topics. Or did I miss something?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

This seems to come out of left field. It doesn't seem connected to the rest of the topics. Or did I miss something?

Not sure now, most likely talking about what Changes God makes and what changes God has not made. An example in Christianity is that of marriage, which has been a law that has not changed. Some aspects of the law like divorce have.

The issue then unfolds, many want to change the law as it is given in the Bible. It is not possible to do that. As our minds turn towards own selves and we desire liberty from God's Laws, then the downfall of humanity Commences.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

A true spiritual teacher does not try to instill dependence upon himself, but independence in God alone. Jesus left his disciples and sent them the Holy Spirit to guide them.

Baha'u'llah requires his followers to remain dependent upon himself as the only manifestation of the Holy Spirit for the next 800 years for all humanity, superseding all previous 'messengers' --regardless of the verbal sleight-of-hand used by followers in this and other discussions to try to distract others away into a hall of mirrors from focussing upon the crucual issues of Baha'i belief.

That makes him a false teacher, imo

That is why we are told to test the spirits, imo

 

[muhammad_isa]

What is your theory for those who do not believe in the God of Abraham? (Buddhists, for example, Sikhs, Hindus, Taoists, etc)

Each and every human being will not be wronged on the day of judgement..

159 Lo! As for those who sunder their religion and become schismatics, no concern at all hast thou with them. Their case will go to Almighty God, who then will tell them what they used to do.
160 Whoso bringeth a good deed will receive tenfold the like thereof, while whoso bringeth an ill deed will be awarded but the like thereof; and they will not be wronged.
161 Say: Lo! As for me, my Lord hath guided me unto a straight path, a right religion, the community of Abraham, the upright, who was no idolater.

162 Say: Lo! my worship and, my sacrifice and my living and my dying are for Almighty God, Lord of the Worlds.
163 He hath no partner. This am I commanded, and I am first of those who surrender (unto Him).
164 Say: Shall I seek another than Almighty God for Lord, when He is Lord of all things? Each soul earneth only on its own account, nor doth any laden (soul) bear another's load. Then unto your Lord is your return and He will tell you that wherein ye differed.
- Quran The Cattle -

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

A true spiritual teacher does not try to instill dependence upon himself, but independence in God alone. Jesus left his disciples and sent them the Holy Spirit to guide them.

Baha'u'llah requires his followers to remain dependent upon himself as the only manifestation of the Holy Spirit for the next 800 years for all humanity, superseding all previous 'messengers' and regardless of the verbal sleight-of-hand employed by his gullible followers in this and other discussions to try to distract others away into a hall of mirrors from focussing upon the crucual issues of Baha'i belief.

That makes him a false teacher, imo

That is why we are told to test the spirits, imo

That is not correct RJM. Baha'u'llah turns us to our One and only God. A prayer from Abdul'baha clarified the error in what you are offering.

"O thou who art turning thy face towards God! Close thine eyes to all things else, and open them to the realm of the All-Glorious. Ask whatsoever thou wishest of Him alone; seek whatsoever thou seekest from Him alone. With a look He granteth a hundred thousand hopes, with a glance He healeth a hundred thousand incurable ills, with a nod He layeth balm on every wound, with a glimpse He freeth the hearts from the shackles of grief. He doeth as He doeth, and what recourse have we? He carrieth out His Will, He ordaineth what He pleaseth. Then better for thee to bow down thy head in submission, and put thy trust in the All-Merciful Lord.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

That is not correct RJM. Baha'u'llah turns us to our One and only God. A prayer from Abdul'baha clarified the error in what you are offering.

"O thou who art turning thy face towards God! Close thine eyes to all things else, and open them to the realm of the All-Glorious. Ask whatsoever thou wishest of Him alone; seek whatsoever thou seekest from Him alone. With a look He granteth a hundred thousand hopes, with a glance He healeth a hundred thousand incurable ills, with a nod He layeth balm on every wound, with a glimpse He freeth the hearts from the shackles of grief. He doeth as He doeth, and what recourse have we? He carrieth out His Will, He ordaineth what He pleaseth. Then better for thee to bow down thy head in submission, and put thy trust in the All-Merciful Lord.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá

Regards Tony

So why the need for Baha'u'llah as the new upgraded Christ and only human manifestation of the Holy Spirit and God's word for all humanity?

Which is it? Dependence upon Baha'u'llah as the only human manifestation of God for the next 800 years or upon God alone?

(edited)

 

[RJM]

"O thou who art turning thy face towards God!

But (only) via Baha'u'llah?
All other faiths damage humanity?

Don't Baha'i pray to (or through) Baha'u'llah, facing towards his grave?

Don't Baha'i believe God is only accessible via the messenger -- which is Baha'u'llah

@Tony Bristow-Stagg has repeated this point often enough, or have I got it wrong?

O Thou Who art the Lord of all names and the Maker of the heavens! I beseech Thee by them Who are the Daysprings of Thine invisible Essence, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, to make of my prayer a fire that will burn away the veils which have shut me out from Thy beauty, and a light that will lead me unto the ocean of Thy Presence.
Long Obligatory Prayer


I beseech Thee, O my Lord, by Him Who is Thy Name, Who, through the power of Thy sovereignty and might, hath risen above the horizon of His prison, to ordain for everyone what becometh Thee and beseemeth Thine exaltation.
www.bahai.org/r/589219039

Praise be to Thee, O Lord my God! I am the one who hath sought the good pleasure of Thy will, and directed his steps towards the seat of Thy gracious favors. I am he who hath forsaken his all, who hath fled to Thee for shelter, who hath set his face towards the tabernacle of Thy revelation and the adored sanctuary of Thy glory.
(Baha’u’llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha’u’llah, p. 206)

How can he who is but a creation of Thy will claim to know what is with Thee, or to conceive Thy nature? ... I beseech Thee, O my Lord, by Thy Name which Thou hast made to be the Day-Spring of Thy Revelation and the Dawning-Place of Thine inspiration, to ordain for this wronged One and for them that are dear to Thee what becometh Thy loftiness. Thou, in very truth, art the All-Bountiful, the All-Powerful, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.
(Bahá'u'lláh, Prayers and Meditations, XXXIX, pp. 55-56)

etc ...

Am open to correction
Whatever ...

(edited)

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

So why the need for Baha'u'llah as the new upgraded Christ and only human manifestation of the Holy Spirit and God's word for all humanity?

Which is it? Dependence upon Baha'u'llah as the only human manifestation of God for the next 800 years or upon God alone?

(edited)

Why does God send the Messengers RJM, why does humanity need them? Why is there end of ages prophecies?

What you answer for Jesus, and what you would expect to be fulfilled upon His return, I see is applicable to them, one and all.

Regards Tony