The Mystery of God’s Will Unfolding in this Matrix 2
- Thread starter Tony Bristow-Stagg
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@Tony Bristow-Stagg
Why do you always lecture down to @Thomas as if he is a child? The way you patronize Thomas and others from a superior level is extremely irritating, imo
I wish you would stop trying to be everybody's teacher here.
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Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
Is that saying the Baha'i Writings are on a Superior level?
Thomas and I were having a back and forth and if you are just, you may note it may have been Thomas that was offering He was coming from the correct position, he does offer I am wrong often, but I do not mind. I then give and honest reply, and I use his name in my relply, as I was replying to Thomas.
I was offering to Thomas that I see it from a different frame of reference and it is possible to see the Bible in different frames of references.
Stay well, stay happy RJM. Regards Tony
It comes across as lecturing and talking down, Tony. Everybody knows you are responding to @Thomas, Tony. No it is not saying the Baha'i writings are on a superior level -- it's saying that you seem to believe you are on a superior level, Tony
With or without your patronizing attitude, lol
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I mean the Baha'i implies the Immanent Holy Spirit is there only in God's messengers ... whereas the Christian Tradition believes that the Holy Spirit is there and accessible to all humanity – to us, He is all inclusive.
To repeat – I said:
... but understood in a Christian context, born again is the Holy Spirit indwelling in the soul.
You've offered Abdul'baha's commentary 'on what Baha'u'llah offered about Soul/Spirit, this specific subject has been addressed.'
You then link to The Procession of the Human Spirit from God.
Nowhere does this address the point I made, nor does it talk of the Holy Spirit Indwelling the soul – as ever, it speaks of mirrored reflection.
Because of this fixation on mirroring, the Christology is flawed, the mirror analogy is a veil which prevents you seeing the true majesty, nobility and humility of the Incarnation, and what it means for humanity.
St Ephrem of Syria wrote:
We should realize that, had He not put on the names of such things,
it would not have been possible for Him to speak with us humans.
But by means of what belongs to us did He draw close to us:
He clothed Himself in language, so that He might clothe us in His mode of life.
He asked for our form and put this on, and then, as a father with his children,
He spoke with our childish state.
(On Faith 31:2)
"The Word was made flesh" (John 1:4) – Para 54 paraphrases: "For by “the Word” is not meant the body of Christ but the divine perfections that were manifested in Him."
No. 'Divine perfections' are Gifts of the Holy Spirit. In the Incarnation, the Divine and human are united in the Person of Jesus Christ – there is not the physical Jesus and spiritual Christ, He is not two, He is One – we're constantly talking past each other, Tony, because you cannot grasp the simplicity of Divine Union – for you there is always a separate two, with a veil between.
... but understood in a Christian context, born again is the Holy Spirit indwelling in the soul.
You've offered Abdul'baha's commentary 'on what Baha'u'llah offered about Soul/Spirit, this specific subject has been addressed.'
You then link to The Procession of the Human Spirit from God.
Nowhere does this address the point I made, nor does it talk of the Holy Spirit Indwelling the soul – as ever, it speaks of mirrored reflection.
Because of this fixation on mirroring, the Christology is flawed, the mirror analogy is a veil which prevents you seeing the true majesty, nobility and humility of the Incarnation, and what it means for humanity.
St Ephrem of Syria wrote:
We should realize that, had He not put on the names of such things,
it would not have been possible for Him to speak with us humans.
But by means of what belongs to us did He draw close to us:
He clothed Himself in language, so that He might clothe us in His mode of life.
He asked for our form and put this on, and then, as a father with his children,
He spoke with our childish state.
(On Faith 31:2)
"The Word was made flesh" (John 1:4) – Para 54 paraphrases: "For by “the Word” is not meant the body of Christ but the divine perfections that were manifested in Him."
No. 'Divine perfections' are Gifts of the Holy Spirit. In the Incarnation, the Divine and human are united in the Person of Jesus Christ – there is not the physical Jesus and spiritual Christ, He is not two, He is One – we're constantly talking past each other, Tony, because you cannot grasp the simplicity of Divine Union – for you there is always a separate two, with a veil between.
No, I can reliably say you are reading it wrong, because your doctrine places an impediment between me and the Indwelling Trinity.
No. According to your doctrine, the Spirit is reflected in the mirror.
According to mine, the Spirit is in the heart. That which shines forth is the illumination/perfection of the human heart, but that which 'illuminates' it is, Itself, a super-essential and invisible radiance.
No, Jesus is Jesus, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit. If you read the NT, you will see the Holy Spirit testifies to Jesus, not the other way round – so this is a categorical error of misunderstanding the nature of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Father.
Yes it is:
"But this human spirit has two aspects: one divine and one satanic" – The Five Kinds of Spirit, para 5.
Which is what I keep trying to open your eyes to – your frame of reference interposes an artificial distinction where none should exist – it does not allow for Immanence.
For you its always at distance,
For us it is always Immanent – closer to me than my jugular vein (Surah 50 v16 of the Noble Quran)
Then stop imposing them on yourself.
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
That quote requires understanding of what Abdul'baha means when he says Satanic. Satanic only being the lack of good.
What Abdul'baha offered is also found in what the Gospels offer.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things
Abdul'baha also explains how there is no independent force of evil, there is no Satan figure.
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
100% correct.
I will close with the remark that all the Messengers were the Embodiment of the Holy Spirit, all were the 'Self of God', they are all One in that Spirit.
That is the simplicity of our Oneness as the human race, when we remove the veil of Names and see naught but One God, the God of All Names.
All the best in life and Faith Thomas.
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
Are you claiming a Station of Christ?
Are you an Annointed One Thomas. This is a valid question given your reply.
In my understanding the Holy Spirit is available and accessible to all Humanity.
Regards Tony
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Yes @Thomas is an anointed one and so am I. Through Jesus Christ the Son of God. These scriptures are speaking to the born again in Jesus Christ. They do not belong to unbelievers. Sorry to burst your bubble. The key is understanding who is being addressed. If they applied to just anyone then the message is confusing to the whole point of Jesus and His purpose coming to earth.
The Holy Spirit is the third in the Trinity and He dwells in the body of believers of Jesus Christ the Son of God and the second in the Trinity.
I don't really expect you to understand these scriptures because you have a veil of lies over your eyes and itchy ears. That being said I'm going to share them anyways.
1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
Corinthians 6:16
Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,“I will dwell in them and walk among them; And I will be their God, and they shall be My people
2 Timothy 1:14
Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.
Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Romans 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him
Galatians 4:6
Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
So your Abdul'baha doesn't even acknowledge the entirety of Christian scripture and only just took what he wanted from it and disregarded the rest. How can we as Christians take anything he said seriously
Just know that Satan's biggest and best weapon is people don't believe he exists
Matthew 16:23
23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns"
1 Corinthians 7:5
5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control
John 8:44
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Zechariah 3:1-2
1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him.
2 The LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?
Luke 22:3 Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve.
Job 1:6-12
6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.
7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”
9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied.
10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land.
11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”
12 The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
TheLightWithin
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Is belief a choice?
Here's my default belief: We cannot fully choose our beliefs, being convinced of something is somewhat involuntary.
We choose our responses, words and actions. I believe we have right next door to complete control over those.
But not necessarily our beliefs.
We can work on changing our beliefs, but for that we need evidence and/or arguments that make sense to us, that explain away what we currently believe and convince us to replace it with another belief.
When we try to explain something to somebody, that is sort of what we are offering.
That is why explaining in religious forums can be taken for evangelizing.
An yet, at least for me, the explanations are what I am here for.
I may or may not be convinced/convicted of an alternative belief to what I am currently convinced of.
But I'm not sure I can choose a new belief without being convinced of it first.
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Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
I see the main issue. Firstly that would offer that no Hindu, Zoroastrian, Buddhist, Muslim or Baha'i can be born into the Holy Spirit.
I accept all those Biblical passages by the way, I have a different way of interpretation, I have a differently frame of reference. I know I am not an Annointed One, that is the Station of Jesus.
Now I can offer a couple of passages, that you quoted and offer the Different Frame of reference, one can consider if they are applicable to one's own self.
1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
Yes, we are made in that image, but we must be born again from the flesh (human condition, into the Holy Spirit)
1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
Yes, when we accept and follow Christ.
Corinthians 6:16
Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,“I will dwell in them and walk among them; And I will be their God, and they shall be My people
That is the Station of Jesus as the Christ, our potential, submission in Christ starts the journey.
2 Timothy 1:14
Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.
The Gift of Faith in Christ.
[Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Romans 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him
Galatians 4:6
Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!]
I see these 3 passages are inclusive of Messengers to come and Roman 8:9 gives us a fair warning, that they too are the Spirit of Christ
John 2:27
As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
This passage is critical to me, it offers we need to be Annointed by Christ in and by Faith. We need Christ to Educate us. We are not Annointed by God, we are not the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End the Alpha and Omega.
Regards Tony
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Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
From what I have read, yes belief is a choice, but most importantly it is a gift of submission.
"For faith, which is life eternal, is the sign of bounty, and not the result of justice." Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 129
The issue is the are thousands of years of Nature and Nurture which have set many rituals and doctrines that we have to weed our way through, so while it is a choice, this matrix may not give everyone the chance to make an informed decision.
"The first sign of faith is love." Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 336
As such Baha'u'llah has also written that those people are under God's bounty and Mercy and it is not a judgement they will face.
This is a great meditation.
"To acquire faith man must cast out the 'stranger' from his heart. To the extent that he succeeds in doing this, he will acquire faith. Once the spark of faith is ignited within the heart it must be allowed to grow steadily into a flame, otherwise it could die because of attachment to this world." Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 2, p. 217-218
Regards Tony
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