The Mystery of God’s Will Unfolding in this Matrix 2

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

But (only) via Baha'u'llah?
All other faiths damage humanity?

Via all God's Prophets and Messengers RJM. They are all One.

The issue is we are subject to time and this age has different requirements than the world had 2000 years ago. God addresses the needs of the age we live in.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Why does God send the Messengers RJM, why does humanity need them?

Baha'u'llah you mean? That's the whole question.

What you answer for Jesus, and what you would expect to be fulfilled upon His return, I see is applicable to them, one and all.

What has Baha'u'llah added to Jesus? (Or any other) What's the need for a new Christ upgrade?

EDIT: if you choose to answer this, could you please provide specifics, rather than wafting generalizations?

 

[RJM]

Via all God's Prophets and Messengers RJM. They are all One.

But you have just said that is not required

"O thou who art turning thy face towards God! Close thine eyes to all things else, and open them to the realm of the All-Glorious. Ask whatsoever thou wishest of Him alone; seek whatsoever thou seekest from Him alone. With a look He granteth a hundred thousand hopes, with a glance He healeth a hundred thousand incurable ills, with a nod He layeth balm on every wound, with a glimpse He freeth the hearts from the shackles of grief. He doeth as He doeth, and what recourse have we? He carrieth out His Will, He ordaineth what He pleaseth. Then better for thee to bow down thy head in submission, and put thy trust in the All-Merciful Lord.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

But (only) via Baha'u'llah?
All other faiths damage humanity?

Don't Baha'i pray to (or through) Baha'u'llah, facing towards his grave?

Don't Baha'i believe God is only accessible via the messenger -- which is Baha'u'llah

@Tony Bristow-Stagg has repeated this point often enough, or have I got it wrong?

O Thou Who art the Lord of all names and the Maker of the heavens! I beseech Thee by them Who are the Daysprings of Thine invisible Essence, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, to make of my prayer a fire that will burn away the veils which have shut me out from Thy beauty, and a light that will lead me unto the ocean of Thy Presence.
Long Obligatory Prayer


I beseech Thee, O my Lord, by Him Who is Thy Name, Who, through the power of Thy sovereignty and might, hath risen above the horizon of His prison, to ordain for everyone what becometh Thee and beseemeth Thine exaltation.
www.bahai.org/r/589219039

Praise be to Thee, O Lord my God! I am the one who hath sought the good pleasure of Thy will, and directed his steps towards the seat of Thy gracious favors. I am he who hath forsaken his all, who hath fled to Thee for shelter, who hath set his face towards the tabernacle of Thy revelation and the adored sanctuary of Thy glory.
(Baha’u’llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha’u’llah, p. 206)

How can he who is but a creation of Thy will claim to know what is with Thee, or to conceive Thy nature? ... I beseech Thee, O my Lord, by Thy Name which Thou hast made to be the Day-Spring of Thy Revelation and the Dawning-Place of Thine inspiration, to ordain for this wronged One and for them that are dear to Thee what becometh Thy loftiness. Thou, in very truth, art the All-Bountiful, the All-Powerful, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.
Bahá'u'lláh, Prayers and Meditations, XXXIX, pp. 55-56

etc ...

Am open to correction
Whatever ...

(edited)

It's about the focus of our thoughts RJM. The key is, the focus is God.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

It's about the focus of our thoughts RJM. The key is, the focus is God.

Yes Tony. So why the need for Baha'u'llah? Jesus has already done it all.

Christians pray through Jesus as the Christ, but Muslims do not pray through Muhammad (pbuh). That is anathema to Muslims. And non-trinitarians believe it anathema for Christians to pray through Jesus.

No other faiths address God through the person of a 'messenger'. Hindus and perhaps some others pray through numerous favourite gods of their own selection, but not through human manifestations?

Baha'i reject the Trinity. Why does Baha'u'llah need to write himself into the Baha'i prayers?

Do you see where this goes?

 

[RJM]

I personally would have no reason to be part of these discussions if not the Baha'i requirement to co-opt Jesus Christ the Son and make of their 'messenger' not just the equal but the superior -- Baha'u'llah Christ the Father -- and to manipulate the New Testament to try support the claim.

What inevitably follows from the Baha'i is a verbal hall of mirrors

Other faiths such as Islam may have their own difficulties with the Baha'i belief

 

[RJM]

In my own opinion the Father represents the spirit dimension (heaven) that permeates and weaves the dimension of nature (earth) represented by Adam as man. The Father sacrifices his only Son in Christ to revoke the separation of Adam and to rent the veil of the temple between man and God. Christ becomes the intermediary bridge between spirit and nature. It's a divine mystery that goes to infinite levels.

There is no need for an updated Christ. There is no need for a new bridge. So it makes no sense to speak of Baha'u'llah as Christ in the station of the Father. The concept doesn't fly, imo

Here's another take:
Kahlil Gibran: Jesus the Son of Man

 

[Thomas]

That quote requires understanding of what Abdul'baha means when he says Satanic. Satanic only being the lack of good.

Then Abdul'baha misuses the word. In Hebrew it is a personal term – not merely the absence of or lack of the good – satan and satanic refers to some order of active adversarial opposition.

There's an explanation here.

What Abdul'baha offered is also found in what the Gospels offer.

No – Satan in the Gospels clearly refers to an individual being.

Abdul'baha also explains how there is no independent force of evil, there is no Satan figure.

Yet there is in the Hebrew Scriptures, the Christian Scriptures, and the Muslim Scriptures ... so what does that tell us?

 

[Thomas]

100% correct.

I know, but you have just contradicted your own doctrine.

I will close with the remark that all the Messengers were the Embodiment of the Holy Spirit, all were the 'Self of God', they are all One in that Spirit.

Well there's three statements here –
1: "all the Messengers were the Embodiment of the Holy Spirit."
Your claim, and an over-statement. The relevant Scriptures refute it.

2: "all were the 'Self of God',"
Again, your claim, and again the Hebrew and Islamic scriptures refute it. Christianity, of course, is a different case, but even then, Christ allows that Divine status to no human person other than Himself.

3: "they are all One in that Spirit."
Being 'one in that Spirit' does not imply embodiment or selfhood of God.

That is the simplicity of our Oneness as the human race, when we remove the veil of Names and see naught but One God, the God of All Names.

And then go further, and remove the veil that divides us from the One God, and then One God dwells in and with us, then the human race will be one.

This does not necessarily mean that every human will be a prophet, priest or king, these are functions of the Mission.

As the poet said, "They also serve who only stand and wait" and as has also been said, we might well "entertain angels unawares".

The Lord's House has many mansions, but it is the one house, and in those many mansions, and we shall all sing the one song, each in his or her own way.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Abdul'baha also explains how there is no independent force of evil, there is no Satan figure.

Yet there is in the Hebrew Scriptures, the Christian Scriptures, and the Muslim Scriptures ... so what does that tell us?

A very good question.

 

[Thomas]

That is an incorrect assumption Thomas.

I am sorry, but I cannot see it any other way.

I am sad that I cannot make you see it.

When your authorities speak of 'immanence' (if it is allowed to happen at all – one source denies it) – it is relative, it is conditional, it is in respect of something external – a mirroring of 'qualities', 'attributes' and 'perfections'.

But not of Divine Union.

A mystery which the Baha'i teachings do not approach.

A Mystery spoken of by St Augustine in his homily (272) to the catechumen:
"Be what you see; receive what you are."

+++

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Yes Tony. So why the need for Baha'u'llah? Jesus has already done it all.

Christians pray through Jesus as the Christ, but Muslims do not pray through Muhammad (pbuh). That is anathema to Muslims. And non-trinitarians believe it anathema for Christians to pray through Jesus.

No other faiths address God through the person of a 'messenger'. Hindus and perhaps some others pray through numerous favourite gods of their own selection, but not through human manifestations?

Baha'i reject the Trinity. Why does Baha'u'llah need to write himself into the Baha'i prayers?

Do you see where this goes?

It goes where you want to take it RJM, I am a Baha'i and I pray to the One and Only God.

This is a topic one would need to study as the direction of prayer has significant history.

Direction of prayer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In Islam the Muslim used to pray in the direction of the Holy Land as does the Jew. Muhammad changed that to the Quibla, that was a great test for the Muslims.

Baha'u'llah explains this in the Kitab-i-iqan.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Then Abdul'baha misuses the word. In Hebrew it is a personal term – not merely the absence of or lack of the good – satan and satanic refers to some order of active adversarial opposition.

Or Abdul'baha understood exactly what the word means.

We get to own up to our transgressions, we are good or we can choose evil. The veils of the devil are removed in our own choices.

No longer can we say, the devil made we do it, no longer can we have a scapegoat.

That is not negating the complexity of nature and nurture, we have thousands of years of conditioning to overcome when it comes to voodoo and evil.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

It goes where you want to take it RJM, I am a Baha'i and I pray to the One and Only God.

This is a topic one would need to study as the direction of prayer has significant history.

Direction of prayer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In Islam the Muslim used to pray in the direction of the Holy Land as does the Jew. Muhammad changed that to the Quibla, that was a great test for the Muslims.

Baha'u'llah explains this in the Kitab-i-iqan.

Regards Tony

You always swerve the main issue by wafting generalizations,Tony.

Anyway -- it's farewell from me to this thread

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Yet there is in the Hebrew Scriptures, the Christian Scriptures, and the Muslim Scriptures ... so what does that tell us?

It tells me that God gave a message suited ro the age when superstitions were not able to be eradicated.

In this age we have been given different frames of references, it is now possible to rid ourselves of superstitions. I addressed that in my previous reply.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

And then go further, and remove the veil that divides us from the One God, and then One God dwells in and with us, then the human race will be one.

Who has those veils Thomas?

Personally my journey has been a path to be one with the human race, a path to embrace all those God has Annointed throughout all time, from the first to the Last, to be One with God.

All the best, much Love, regards Tony.

 

[TheLightWithin]

So those 2 examples, one subtle, one forthright, indicate that our thoughts and action's do have repercussions extending through time.

Thanks for the more clear explanation.
My take on this would be, that it is rigidity of doctrine, unquestioning adherence, and inflexibility of thinking and intolerance of difference, which are more to blame than to say any one religion is to blame. That is rigid fanatical fundamentalism, or that way of approaching faith, is damaging, no matter what that faith may be.

 

[TheLightWithin]

No other faiths address God through the person of a 'messenger'. Hindus and perhaps some others pray through numerous favourite gods of their own selection, but not through human manifestations?

I think some denominations of Hinduism believe in avatars who may be incarnations in addition to messengers https://www.britannica.com/summary/..., the incarnation,the incarnation yet to come).

Baha'i reject the Trinity. Why does Baha'u'llah need to write himself into the Baha'i prayers?

I thought at first that they did have a more unitarian concept of God the way those in Islam do, however, things that have been said about Bahaula being an incarnation of the Father makes it seem like a more detailed theory of the trinity? It's confusing to say the least -- @tony or @Ahanu can maybe explain.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Who has those veils Thomas?

The veil between this world and the other. I think it's a common metaphor that is somewhat cross cultural.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I am sorry, but I cannot see it any other way.

I am sad that I cannot make you see it.

When your authorities speak of 'immanence' (if it is allowed to happen at all – one source denies it) – it is relative, it is conditional, it is in respect of something external – a mirroring of 'qualities', 'attributes' and 'perfections'.

But not of Divine Union.

A mystery which the Baha'i teachings do not approach.

A Mystery spoken of by St Augustine in his homily (272) to the catechumen:
"Be what you see; receive what you are."

+++

Most likely we are seeing the same thing in different frames of references Thomas.

I think you would agree there is no point in argument.

Regards Tony