The Mystery of God’s Will Unfolding in this Matrix 2
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Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
That is your frame of reference Thomas not mine.
It is 100% a spiritual choice to be born again from the flesh into the Spirit, to choose to mirror that Spirit to others.
Regards Tony
A folk belief, but inaccurate – a sentimentalism.
Angels are not saints and saints are not angels – we're talking two different things.
Nope. Knowledge expanded will still use the correct terms or coin new ones, it will not sew confusion.
You're clearly at odds with Baha'u'llah then.
'mirror that Spirit to others' is not Union, Tony; nor is it Divine Immanence ...
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
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From my understanding, the Bahá'í view of God is that His essence is eternally transcendent, but attributes and qualities of God are completely immanent in the Manifestations.
I see that our knowledge of anything is limited to our knowledge of the perceptible attributes of that thing, thus the knowledge of the Manifestations (for ordinary humans) is equivalent to the knowledge of God.
This knowledge is only gained through study, prayer, meditation, and practical application based on the revealed Word of God, the Holy Scriptures.
Regards Tony
From my understanding, the Bahá'í view of God is that His essence is eternally transcendent, but attributes and qualities of God are completely immanent in the Manifestations.
I see that our knowledge of anything is limited to our knowledge of the perceptible attributes of that thing, thus the knowledge of the Manifestations (for ordinary humans) is equivalent to the knowledge of God.
This knowledge is only gained through study, prayer, meditation, and practical application based on the revealed Word of God, the Holy Scriptures.
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
"..The door of the knowledge of the Ancient Being [God] hath ever been, and will continue to be, closed in the face of men. No man's understanding shall ever gain access unto His holy court. As a token of His mercy, however, and as a proof of His loving-kindness, He hath manifested unto men the Day Stars of His divine guidance, the Symbols of His divine unity, and hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of His own Self..."
That says to me that the recognition of Christ is the recognition of the Divine in all things.
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
New terms like 'Manifestation of God' or 'Self of God', which clarify and expand on our knowledge of our connection with the divine
I like to appreciate that God does as God so wills, and that it is God that gives us the frames of references we need to consider.
Regards Tony
Yes, that's how I understand the Baha'i view.
The Abrahamic view is different – God is indeed eternally transcendent (common to all Traditions), however, God is equally and simultaneously Immanently present in and to all His creation – that's the crucial distinction between our two beliefs.
Furthermore – I might argue that God's 'attributes' and 'qualities' belong to His nature, His essence, and therefore are equally as utterly transcendent as His essence – there are no distinctions in the Divine Nature. What you speak of as seen in the Manifestations are not God, nor the Divine Immanence, but the nature, qualities and attributes of the person in whom God dwells – thus that Immanence at one remove.
OK.
That is knowing something at the corporeal level – knowing as apprehended by the senses and then the mind, but there is another order of knowing, the spiritual/mystical level, and this is an order of knowing that transcends the sensible and the world of forms – this is a knowing through the veils of Maya, as the Hindu has it.
The Love of God does not stop short at the Manifestations.
If you studied, prayed and meditated on the Holy Scriptures from outside the Baha'i Box – you would see the message of Immanence writ clear. The Baha'i teachings have pre-determined your insights.
We are the door, Tony. It is we who closed it, and it is we who must open it ... our manifestations cannot do it for us ...
That's the key in Holman Hunt's painting – Christ knocks, there is no handle on the outside of the door, it can only be opened from within.
“Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will enter his house and dine with him, and he with me.” (Revelations 3:20)
Not the term under discussion.
I could list the terms I like ... but beware, because God warns against idols.
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Bravo!
I love this!!! I would also add the following verse! Matthew 7:7-11
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
I have never said Love stops at the Manifestations Thomas. Our Love is for God, yet what is that Love, as God is Unknowable, what are we loving? It will turn out we are really Loving what we can know, the Love of Christ and all the Attributes. We are imagining the most transcendent thing possible and casting our Love to the apex, yet the Apex is only known through Christ.
The key is, I see it is logical and reasonable to offer they are all we do know of God. God does not come to any other human but via the Annointed Ones, the Christ's. We embrace God by embracing Christ.
I see the Christ's are the Sun's of our reality.
God is outside of all of creation and creation is contained, God is Unrestrained. So I imagine all the sun's of our known creation, are representing all the Manifestations of God.
Now I ask honestly Thomas, if the Message of Baha’u’llah is as Christ, as are the Messages of Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha and Muhammad. That would have to change your frame of references, would it not?
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
I see Revelation 3 opens as an introduction to the end of ages, where Christ will come like a Thief in the Night. It offers we will need new ears to hear what the Spirit says to the Churches. That the seals of meaning were shut and would not be opened ro the end of ages. There is a new Jerusalem and a New name that needs to be written.
I see that Christ is the Door we have to knock at. Faith is the handle we use to open that door and Verse 19 and 20 are for Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
Verses 21 and 22 has been lost to Christianity, unless that open the door at verse 20.
I have a different frame of reference for these passages Thomas.
Regards Tony
Modesty
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But conceptions of God and of deities in general are much older than any of the Manifestations.
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
Luckily there is absolutely no Idols in the Baha'i Faith.
I consider that Christ is the First and the Last, the Beginning and the end. Thus our conceptions are pre-dated by Christ and Christ exists after our perceptions cease.
Baha'u'llah has offered Manifestations have always been sent, that civilization on this earth is far older than we can imagine. That the records have been lost in time, does not mean they have not always guided us.
This is such a great subject, there are books of material given in the Baha'i Writings on this topic, yet they will remain unposted, unless one wishes to explore what they offer. Let me know.
Regards Tony
Faithfulservant
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How sad to read the bible and still believe God is unknowable. I feel sorry for you.
Modesty
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I'm confused by what you mean when you use the term Christ, because outside of its theological implications in Christianity, its just a Greek translation of the Hebrew word for messiah (if I'm not incorrect). How do Baha'i understand messiahship? Are the Messengers considered messiahs? Or are you talking about Jesus here specifically?
That's an interesting take, albeit one that seems a bit confused historically.
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
I accept the Bible is knowledge of the Attributes of God. This is but a distraction.
I would ask you to give me knowledge of the Essence of God that Christ has not shown in Word and Attributes.
If you are unable to expand on the Essence of God, then you too only know God via the Word and the example of Jesus Christ. This knowledge is not as annointed one, but as one who has faith in that Word and Christ.
Regards Tony
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