You need 3000 verses?
That doesn't make him Jesus, Tony
Lol
The Mystery of God’s Will Unfolding in this Matrix 2
- Thread starter Tony Bristow-Stagg
- Start date
- Status
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
Difficult question for a black and white person, I need to consider a genuine answer.
Reflecting on my own self, I guess not. At least, I am not able to stomach any interpretation that splits One God and rejects any of the Messengers. I am also unable to stomach predudices, injustice, tyranny, recreational alcohol, drugs, etc.
So what can one say with interpretations that want to push those divides? Best I walk away I guess. That is why I will always struggle on forums, that is why people will always struggle with me.
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
Absolutely. Definitely. How could he not be ...
Last edited:
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
I am not able to convince you or anyone. Yes, you can choose to beleive what you choose to beleive.
I personally hope I can discuss all this without making it personal.
Why do you post in these OP's?
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
The Bible says it, Jesus says it.
Matthew 11:14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.
Jesus also said Elijah always comes first.
Regards Tony
Niblo
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 151
- Reaction score
- 214
- Points
- 43
Hi Tony. I’m fine, thanks. I trust it’s the same with you.Hello Niblo, great to hear from you, I hope you are well and happy.
I am not able to answer your question in any academic way but to offer what Baha'u'llah offered. There is a Tablet that was translated by Shoghi Effendi, and Julian Coal has done further translations at this link.
Baha'i Library Online
Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materialsbahai-library.com
From what I understand it is about knowing one's own self, knowing the image we are made in.
An extract from the Link, that Tablet is;
"He who knoweth his self hath known his Lord (Man ‘arafa nafsahú faqad ‘arafa Rabbahú): A commentary by Bahá'u'lláh
translated by Shoghi Effendi and Juan Cole
1996
I will highlight in bold and put my thoughts in brackets.
"....For in all things is present and visible the sign of the effulgence of the self-subsistent Glory and the rays of the manifestation of the unique Sun. This sign is not and never shall be confined to any one soul. This is the truth, and no doubt lies therein, if you be among those who know. But the primary intent of knowing the self in this station is the knowledge of the Self of God (the Messengers) in every era and age. For the pre-existent essence and the ocean of reality is exalted above the knowledge of all else but Him (the knowledgeof the Messenger). Therefore, the insight attained by all the mystics actually hath reference to their insight into the Manifestations of His Cause. They are the Self of God among His servants, His Manifestation in His Creation, His Sign among His creatures. Whoso knoweth them hath known god, whoso hath affirmed them hath affirmed God, whoso hath acknowledged Their truth hath acknowledged the signs of God, the Help in Peril, the Everlasting. Thus do We reveal for you the signs, that you might be guided by the Signs of God..."
This Tablet has much mystical thought, the end of the Tablet gives much promise for our own selves, when we embrace the "Self of God".
Regards Tony
I have a copy of the Kitáb-i-Íqán (‘The Book of Certitude’) written, as you will know, by Baháʼu'lláh (known by the Official Website of the Worldwide Bahá’í Community as: ‘Baháʼu'lláh – The Divine Educator’).
Baháʼu'lláh writes:
Briefly, there hath been revealed in the Kitáb-i-Íqán concerning the Presence and Revelation of God that which will suffice the fair-minded.’ (‘Epistle to the Son of the Wolf’).
In his foreword to the Íqán, Shoghi Effendi – the translator – writes:
‘This is one more attempt to introduce to the West, in language however inadequate, this book of unsurpassed pre-eminence among the writings of the Author of the Bahá’í Revelation. The hope is that it may assist others in their efforts to approach what must always be regarded as the unattainable goal—a befitting rendering of Bahá’u’lláh’s matchless utterance.’ (My emphasis).
An important work, then.
In Part One of the Íqán, Baháʼu'lláh writes:
‘As to the matter of names, Muḥammad, Himself, declared: “I am Jesus.”’
Nowhere in the Qur’an does Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) refer to the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) as ‘Jesus’.
Nowhere in the Qur’an does the Prophet as refer to himself ‘Jesus’.
Nowhere in the ʼaḥādīth does the Prophet refer to himself as ‘Jesus’.
Baháʼu'lláh is in grave error; or else he is lying.
How do you square this with your belief that Baháʼu'lláh is a ‘Self of God His Manifestation in His Creation, His Sign among His creatures’?
Over the years I have had many conversations with the Bahá’í – including yourself. I have been told, repeatedly, that the Bahá’í revere the Qur’an.
Shoghi Effendi writes:
‘As to Muhammad, the Apostle of God, let none among His followers who read these pages, think for a moment that either Islám, or its Prophet, or His Book, or His appointed Successors, or any of His authentic teachings, have been, or are to be in any way, or to however slight a degree, disparaged………the arguments adduced, forcibly, fearlessly, and publicly by `Abdu'l-Bahá, in churches and synagogues, to demonstrate the validity of the Message of the Arabian Prophet……….. all proclaim, in no uncertain terms, the true attitude of the Bahá'í Faith towards its parent religion.’( ‘ The Promised Day Is Come’).
Make no mistake, Tony, the ‘true attitude of the Bahá'í Faith towards its parent religion’ is to accept what they like, and reject what they please.
In Part One Íqán, Baháʼu'lláh writes:
‘In like manner, when the hour of the Revelation of Jesus drew nigh, a few of the Magi, aware that the star of Jesus had appeared in heaven, sought and followed it, till they came unto the city which was the seat of the Kingdom of Herod. The sway of his sovereignty in those days embraced the whole of that land.
‘These Magi said: “Where is He that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen His star in the east and are come to worship Him!”48 When they had searched, they found out that in Bethlehem, in the land of Judea, the Child had been born. This was the sign that was manifested in the visible heaven.’
A clear reference to the nativity, according to Matthew.
However, Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) says:
‘And so it was ordained: she (Mary) conceived him. She withdrew to a distant place and, when the pains of childbirth drove her to (cling to) the trunk of a palm tree, she exclaimed, ‘I wish I had been dead and forgotten long before all this!’....., ('Maryam:22-23).
If we accept the Gospel nativity account (and Baháʼu'lláh clearly does; for why else would he quote it?), then we must reject the Qur’an’s (and vice versa, of course). The Bahá’í cannot have it both ways. The narratives are mutually exclusive.
Baháʼu'lláh continues:
‘Likewise, reflect upon the state and condition of Mary. So deep was the perplexity of that most beauteous countenance, so grievous her case, that she bitterly regretted she had ever been born. To this beareth witness the text of the sacred verse wherein it is mentioned that after Mary had given birth to Jesus, she bemoaned her plight and cried out: “O would that I had died ere this, and been a thing forgotten, forgotten quite!” (My emphasis).
As you can see from the above ʾāyāt, Mary (Radi Allahu ‘anha)’s lament occurred during her labour, and not after it.
You might be forgiven for thinking that Baháʼu'lláh (a ‘Self of God His Manifestation in His Creation, His Sign among His creatures’?) should have known this.
In Part Two of the Iqán, Baháʼu'lláh writes:
‘Thus hath Ṣádiq, son of Muḥammad, spoken: “God verily will test them and sift them.” This is the divine standard, this is the Touchstone of God, wherewith He proveth His servants.’ (My emphasis).
The Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) had only three sons (Qasim; Abdullah; and Ibrahim). All three died in infancy.
Was Baháʼu'lláh not aware of this; or, being aware, why does he lie?
How do you square this with your belief that Baháʼu'lláh is a ‘Self of God His Manifestation in His Creation, His Sign among His creatures’?
Blessings.
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
Luckily there are most likely billions that now embrace the concept that God is One and that all Faiths reflect the same Morals and Virtues, That God is found in them all.
It's a growing reality, relevant to our current frame of reference, which can change in a blink of the eye, with a heartbeat.
Regards Tony
if you're going to pose as a wannabe new John the Baptist perhaps
EDIT: I've no doubt these were charismatic people who came at a pivotal time but the problem is their later followers trying to turn them into a parody of the gospel narrative, imo
Last edited:
That the writings of Baha'u'llah and his immediate family are the set and final undisputable word of God for 800 years to come ... yup
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
You've made it personal to me. I think I've done a fairly decent job explaining why it's personal.
You do not respect other people's beliefs as much as you say otherwise.
And I can post wherever why I want.. why do YOU post where you post.. you had no problems posting on my threads.
Modesty
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 370
- Reaction score
- 542
- Points
- 88
I appreciate you being honest about it, but I think that's kind of unfortunate. You cannot stomach other people's beliefs if they contradict your own? Because there are beliefs that reject "any of the Messengers". All belief systems outside of Baha'i reject Baha'u'llah. I don't think you'd have any struggles on a Baha'i forum, but this is interfaith.
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
Thank you Niblo, some observations given below.
Note Baha'u'llah is Quoting from a source (Bold is mine)
"In the “‘Aválim,” an authoritative and well-known book, it is recorded: “A Youth from Baní-Háshim shall be made manifest, Who will reveal a new Book and promulgate a new law”; then follow these words: “Most of His enemies will be the divines.” In another passage, it is related of Ṣádiq, son of Muḥammad, that he spoke the following: “There shall appear a Youth from Baní-Háshim, Who will bid the people plight fealty unto Him. His Book will be a new Book, unto which He shall summon the people to pledge their faith. Stern is His Revelation unto the Arab. If ye hear about Him, hasten unto Him.” How well have they followed the directions of the Imáms of the Faith and Lamps of certitude! Although it is clearly stated: “Were ye to hear that a Youth from Baní-Háshim hath appeared, summoning the people unto a new and Divine Book, and to new and Divine laws, hasten unto Him,”
Baha'u'llah was quoting what was written elsewhere.
Here are a couple of Ahadith.
Hazrat Mirza wrote as follows:
``Of all the leaders of Tasawwuf that there have been till the present day, not even one has disagreed with the point that in this religion the path to become the likes of prophets is open, as the Holy Prophet Muhammad has given the glad tidings for spiritual and godly learned persons that `the Ulama of my nation are like the Israelite Prophets'. The words of Abu Yazid Bustami given below, which are recorded in Tazkirat al-Auliya by Farid-ud-Din Attar, and are also found in other reliable works, are on this basis, as he says: `I am Adam, I am Seth, I am Noah, I am Abraham, I am Moses, I am Jesus, I am Muhammad, peace be upon him and upon all these brothers of his.' Similarly, Sayyid Abdul Qadir Jilani, in his book Futuh al-Ghaib, refers to this point, i.e. that man, by leaving his ego and annihilating himself in God, becomes the like, rather the very form, of the prophets.'' (Izala Auham, pp. 258--260)
``The Holy Quran clearly gives this instruction, and in the opening chapter gives us the hope of becoming the likes of prophets. God exhorts us to pray to Him five times a day and beseech Him to give us guidance so that we may become the like of Adam; the like of Seth, the prophet of God; the like of Noah, the second Adam; the like of Abraham, the friend of God; the like of Moses, the recipient of God's word; the like of Jesus; and the like of the Holy Prophet Muhammad and Ahmad, and the like of every truthful and faithful one.'' (ibid., p. 257)
``Ponder over this, that all the eternal fountains of spiritual life have come into the world through the Holy Prophet Muhammad. This is the nation [i.e. Muslim nation] which, though not having any prophets (nabi) in it, has those who receive the word of God like prophets, and though not having any messengers (rasul) in it, has those who show God's clear signs like messengers. It has rivers of spiritual life flowing in it, and none can compete with it.'' (Ainah Kamalat Islam, p. 224)
``God's ancient way cannot be denied, viz., that He gives the name of one to another on account of spiritual similarity. He who has the nature of Abraham is Abraham in God's sight, he who has the nature of Moses is Moses in God's sight, and he who has the nature of Jesus is Jesus in God's sight. And he who has a share of all these has all these names applied to him.'' (Izala Auham, p. 412)
Same with your other observations Niblo. Baha'u'llah offers in the Kitab-i-iqan that it is God that tests His servants. It is up to us to find out why two passages may seem to conflict. In the end, if we search long enough, we will find the conflict is all ours, a gift to enable us to change.
Regards Tony
This can be answered, as it is answered just prior to that "Quote"
Note Baha'u'llah is Quoting from a source (Bold is mine)
"In the “‘Aválim,” an authoritative and well-known book, it is recorded: “A Youth from Baní-Háshim shall be made manifest, Who will reveal a new Book and promulgate a new law”; then follow these words: “Most of His enemies will be the divines.” In another passage, it is related of Ṣádiq, son of Muḥammad, that he spoke the following: “There shall appear a Youth from Baní-Háshim, Who will bid the people plight fealty unto Him. His Book will be a new Book, unto which He shall summon the people to pledge their faith. Stern is His Revelation unto the Arab. If ye hear about Him, hasten unto Him.” How well have they followed the directions of the Imáms of the Faith and Lamps of certitude! Although it is clearly stated: “Were ye to hear that a Youth from Baní-Háshim hath appeared, summoning the people unto a new and Divine Book, and to new and Divine laws, hasten unto Him,”
Baha'u'llah was quoting what was written elsewhere.
I would offer we just have to look deeper, no Muslim divine was able to prove Baha'u'llah was wrong about a quote.
Here are a couple of Ahadith.
Hazrat Mirza wrote as follows:
``Of all the leaders of Tasawwuf that there have been till the present day, not even one has disagreed with the point that in this religion the path to become the likes of prophets is open, as the Holy Prophet Muhammad has given the glad tidings for spiritual and godly learned persons that `the Ulama of my nation are like the Israelite Prophets'. The words of Abu Yazid Bustami given below, which are recorded in Tazkirat al-Auliya by Farid-ud-Din Attar, and are also found in other reliable works, are on this basis, as he says: `I am Adam, I am Seth, I am Noah, I am Abraham, I am Moses, I am Jesus, I am Muhammad, peace be upon him and upon all these brothers of his.' Similarly, Sayyid Abdul Qadir Jilani, in his book Futuh al-Ghaib, refers to this point, i.e. that man, by leaving his ego and annihilating himself in God, becomes the like, rather the very form, of the prophets.'' (Izala Auham, pp. 258--260)
``The Holy Quran clearly gives this instruction, and in the opening chapter gives us the hope of becoming the likes of prophets. God exhorts us to pray to Him five times a day and beseech Him to give us guidance so that we may become the like of Adam; the like of Seth, the prophet of God; the like of Noah, the second Adam; the like of Abraham, the friend of God; the like of Moses, the recipient of God's word; the like of Jesus; and the like of the Holy Prophet Muhammad and Ahmad, and the like of every truthful and faithful one.'' (ibid., p. 257)
``Ponder over this, that all the eternal fountains of spiritual life have come into the world through the Holy Prophet Muhammad. This is the nation [i.e. Muslim nation] which, though not having any prophets (nabi) in it, has those who receive the word of God like prophets, and though not having any messengers (rasul) in it, has those who show God's clear signs like messengers. It has rivers of spiritual life flowing in it, and none can compete with it.'' (Ainah Kamalat Islam, p. 224)
``God's ancient way cannot be denied, viz., that He gives the name of one to another on account of spiritual similarity. He who has the nature of Abraham is Abraham in God's sight, he who has the nature of Moses is Moses in God's sight, and he who has the nature of Jesus is Jesus in God's sight. And he who has a share of all these has all these names applied to him.'' (Izala Auham, p. 412)
Same with your other observations Niblo. Baha'u'llah offers in the Kitab-i-iqan that it is God that tests His servants. It is up to us to find out why two passages may seem to conflict. In the end, if we search long enough, we will find the conflict is all ours, a gift to enable us to change.
Regards Tony
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
As there are approximately 7 .8 billion people worldwide I think your estimate of billions is highly unlikely. There are roughly 5-8 million Baha'i worldwide compare that to 2.38 billion Christians that would not ascribe to Baha'i beliefs 1.8 billion Muslims that would not ascribe to Baha'i beliefs. To give you an idea of how small the amount of followers of Baha'i there are in correlation to the world.. I live in Dallas- Fort Worth TX where the estimated population is 7.7 million people. That is about the total amount of your religion around the world in my one small corner.
The only reason I point this out is that you twist scripture to validate your religious beliefs and now twist erroneously the number of followers.. it's just pure dishonesty and deceit and I'm here to call out the bs when I see it.
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
It is more that I am not able to reconcile the damage it does to all humanity.
I can assure you It is never about me. It is about humanity, that is the heart God has given us all, that we are one.
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
Scripture is from One Source, God. So how is it and why is it, that we twist it?
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
I ask why you post, as I see you struggle with the topics of these discussions, why subject yourself to such conflicts?
God works in mysterious ways indeed. Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
Likewise, all the Holy Books of the past are Confirmed in the Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah as are the declarations and practice of faith in the past.
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
That is why I chose ro put the topic under 'Belief and Spirituality'.
That title appears to cover all, does it not?
Or are people saying only Christianity has Belief and Spirituality?
Regards Tony
- Status