Sapere aude

[Thomas]

The person making the existence claim (a claim that something exists outside of what is normally encountered in life) has the burden of proof.

OK.

To be rational is to ratio your belief relative to the strength of evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

OK.

There is no evidence of god, therefore it's irrational to believe in it.

Oh, I rather think there is, it's just that the 'evidence', that is the fruit of a rational discourse, is itself extraordinary..

God is, by no measure, 'ordinary' nor the object of what most would describe as 'normal' and 'everyday', or mundane, experience.

So I rather think the flaw here is your supposition that for God to exist requires the ability for you to prove to your own satisfaction that God is something which, by my understanding (and mine is common to almost all theologies), God is not.

 

[Naturalist]

I have the choice whether or not to respond to your post. Of course human free will exists. I make choices all the time

You make choices, but you can't help but make the choice you made. Every choice you make is predicated on past events, which have already happened. It's counter-intuitive, but that's what the evidence shows.

 

[Naturalist]

OK.


OK.


Oh, I rather think there is, it's just that the 'evidence', that is the fruit of a rational discourse, is itself extraordinary..

God is, by no measure, 'ordinary' nor the object of what most would describe as 'normal' and 'everyday', or mundane, experience.

So I rather think the flaw here is your supposition that for God to exist requires the ability for you to prove to your own satisfaction that God is something which, by my understanding (and mine is common to almost all theologies), God is not.

God is not something, so is it nothing? I can agree to that.

 

[MikeS]

I agree, humans are not entirely rational, but they can improve if they try. Irrationality plays out in many ways, and with 8 billion people on the planet, I'm concerned. Take voting...people's irrationality can affect you, even if you don't know them. Child care...innocent kids are harmed by irrational parents. Many more examples.

Yep, irrationality CAN be problematic. So can rationality taken to extremes.....emotions are largely considered irrational (although what I think is meant is that the ways of expressing emotion can be counter productive), and yet trying to suppress emotions can be harmful.

God of the gaps, may be irrational. But it serves people who need an answer other than 'we just don't know'. As with the emotion point, I feel it can be counter-productive to overlook how valuable the God of the gaps can be in helping people who need an answer to feel there IS an answer, but that it's out of reach.

We're all humans traveling through space on the same planet, sharing experiences and finding understanding and meaning for those experiences. There ARE times when the different understandings can be dangerous. But I'm aware that we often project the notion of danger around difference, when no danger actually exists.

 

[RJM]

You make choices, but you can't help but make the choice you made. Every choice you make is predicated on past events, which have already happened. It's counter-intuitive, but that's what the evidence shows.

It's a hoary old chestnut long past its sell-by date, imo
Two people who come from broken homes can make completely different life decisions

I have free will to go left or go right. The last act is always my own

 

[MikeS]

Human free will is just an emotion, that you feel. It doesn't actually exist.

Those Norns have much more control over your wyrd than we give them credit for.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Every choice you make is predicated on past events, which have already happened..

Is it?
..so if I am driving a car along the road, and press the brake to avoid a collision, I must have had a collision previously?

 

[Faithfulservant]

I've heard a few times recently that "religion is for weak people". I get a bit of a laugh from this as we all worship something or someone whether it be the God of the Bible or science. The same language and attitudes are present with each type. Atheism is a religion lol

 

[Naturalist]

Yep, irrationality CAN be problematic. So can rationality taken to extremes.....emotions are largely considered irrational (although what I think is meant is that the ways of expressing emotion can be counter productive), and yet trying to suppress emotions can be harmful.
God of the gaps, may be irrational. But it serves people who need an answer other than 'we just don't know'. As with the emotion point, I feel it can be counter-productive to overlook how valuable the God of the gaps can be in helping people who need an answer to feel there IS an answer, but that it's out of reach.
We're all humans traveling through space on the same planet, sharing experiences and finding understanding and meaning for those experiences. There ARE times when the different understandings can be dangerous. But I'm aware that we often project the notion of danger around difference, when no danger actually exists.

I don't associate irrationality to emotions. Emotions are a separate issue. You can be rational and be emotional, or irrational and emotional.

God of the gaps can give people answers, but it's the wrong answer. So unless someone is on their deathbed or something drastic, I'll correct them.

 

[Faithfulservant]

I don't associate irrationality to emotions. Emotions are a separate issue. You can be rational and be emotional, or irrational and emotional.

God of the gaps can give people answers, but it's the wrong answer. So unless someone is on their deathbed or something drastic, I'll correct them.

You sound so religious.

 

[Naturalist]

Is it?
..so if I am driving a car along the road, and press the brake to avoid a collision, I must have had a collision previous? NO

 

[Naturalist]

You sound so religious.

Not by most people's definition.

 

[muhammad_isa]

NO

..so who is driving the cars down the highway, if we do not have free-will to make decisions?

 

[MikeS]

I don't associate irrationality to emotions. Emotions are a separate issue. You can be rational and be emotional, or irrational and emotional.

God of the gaps can give people answers, but it's the wrong answer. So unless someone is on their deathbed or something drastic, I'll correct them.

If the alternative answer is 'we just don't know', it's pretty hard to be certain that the God of the gaps is the wrong answer. I'd suggest it's also pretty hard to categorically correct them on that.

 

[Faithfulservant]

I don't associate irrationality to emotions. Emotions are a separate issue. You can be rational and be emotional, or irrational and emotional.

God of the gaps can give people answers, but it's the wrong answer. So unless someone is on their deathbed or something drastic, I'll correct them.

Is that why you join an interfaith forum? To correct us? Such arrogance.

 

[MikeS]

I don't associate irrationality to emotions. Emotions are a separate issue. You can be rational and be emotional, or irrational and emotional.

God of the gaps can give people answers, but it's the wrong answer. So unless someone is on their deathbed or something drastic, I'll correct them.

Thinking further, if you feel so strongly about correcting people with regard to the God of the gaps, why would you not correct someone who was on their deathbed?

 

[Naturalist]

I've heard a few times recently that "religion is for weak people". I get a bit of a laugh from this as we all worship something or someone whether it be the God of the Bible or science. The same language and attitudes are present with each type. Atheism is a religion lol

Absolutely not. In science one tries to disprove what one thinks she knows. In religion, one doesn't know anything, one just believes.

If the alternative answer is 'we just don't know', it's pretty hard to be certain that the God of the gaps is the wrong answer. I'd suggest it's also pretty hard to categorically correct them on that.

Well we have history. Once we figured out what caused disease, lightning, volcanic eruptions, etc. The role of God gets smaller and smaller.

Based on that history, it's much more likely it's not God, and that's it's something else. God = I don't know

 

[Naturalist]

Is that why you join an interfaith forum? To correct us? Such arrogance.

If someone corrected me, I'd be thankful for the help.

 

[Naturalist]

Thinking further, if you feel so strongly about correcting people with regard to the God of the gaps, why would you not correct someone who was on their deathbed?

Because that person has greater issues to deal with than being right or wrong about something.

 

[Naturalist]

..so who is driving the cars down the highway, if we do not have free-will to make decisions?

The drivers.